Wing Chun power

[Troll Virus]

I think you are taking me for an inexpereinced martial arts newbie (which in some ways I am), but I have done martial arts for 20 years and have seen many different styles.

Didn't you say elsewhere that you were 25 y/o?

I then looked at London instructors, one of whom was Wai Po Tan who I found had misguided beliefs in the system and thought of himself as the best of the best. Indeed his forms were quite impressive but his other attributes weren't great.

Coincidentally somebody else I mentioned.

Sam Kwok (who I found to be a little arrogant for my liking although good at what he did),

You're either trolling/bullshitting or perhaps an idiot.
Maybe all three.
There's not an arrogant molecule in that guys body, but if there was, he'd back it up.

What I would say is that when you train wing chun, you do wing chun. What is the point in using another technique in the middle of a wing chun drill? If you are free fighting, sparring, etc then fine - you should use what works.
But if you are in a class being taught techniques and you use something else, I just see this as either showing off or trying to hurt someone for the sake of it.

That's a load of crap, and what is inherently wrong with the majority of Wing Chun schools.

As I said before, I have respect for all martial arts, but people should understand that most martial arts are limited to certain environments/conditions.

The only limits placed on styles are those invented by people.

I think you're off my Xmas list now.

[jubaji]

I would freely admit that if I faced a grappler or someone who was sparring me, wing chun would not work. It is meant to be an explosive system that does not move round the opponent for several minutes before taking a shot

Maybe you are not aware of how ignorant your recent comments make you seem. Why not just take a break, be quiet, read some of Troll Virus's comments for a few days?


Ah, never mind. It seems he's already exposed you for the fraud you are.

[Troll Virus]

Maybe you are not aware of how ignorant your recent comments make you seem. Why not just take a break, be quiet, read some of Troll Virus's comments for a few days and get a handle on how best someone in your position might express himself?

Yay, KUDOS from jubaji,
I'm honoured.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

You're either trolling/bullshitting or perhaps an idiot.
Maybe all three.
There's not an arrogant molecule in that guys body, but if there was, he'd back it up.

Troll,
I too have been told I had an arrogant look, I am nowhere near arrogant, which the guy pointing it out to me knew, sometime, you have that look ( seems I have it when training seriously or doing exams)

[Troll Virus]

Troll,
I too have been told I had an arrogant look, I am nowhere near arrogant, which the guy pointing it out to me knew, sometime, you have that look ( seems I have it when training seriously or doing exams)

Yah, my face gets me into trouble all the time too.

[Thai Bri]

We are talking dreamland language again.

Yes, boxers can damage their hands when they punch people, especially without wraps and gloves. Why? Because the head is hard and.... heres the crucial bit..... THEY HIT FOOOKIN HARD! Wing Chun guys rarely hurt their hands when they hit things, no matter how hard the substance is. Do you want to guess why?

Yes, boxers do struggle in the clinch. The referee does have to break them. But you are talking as if Wing Chun guys somehow know how to clinch. They most certainly do not. All that "sensitivity" work does not transfer to a real fight. If you want to learn how to fight from the clinch their are arts that will teach you. But Wing Chun is most certainly not one of them.

Now I think it is obvious what would happen if a boxer and Wing Chun guy of similar ability met in a match. Heres another clue. One would stand rigidly, stick his chin out and then pitter patter ineffective blows. The other would deck the daft sod, laying him out flat. Might break his hand though.

To me it is also obvious what would happen if each of these got into a fight with an aggressive thug. Read the above paragraph. Its the same!

As for Kamon? I have no beef with him. I respect the fact that he has branched out into another art. I have never met him, but my guess (and this is a guess of course) is that he has seen the limitiations of Wing Chun and is working his way around it. He's begun to do what Bruce Lee did.... open his horizons. He would have no need if WC was all that some people here crack it up to be.

But I do question the amount of clubs he has. There are so many, just how well qualified are these instructors? This implies severe McDojo. Like others here know, despite my only experience of Wing Chun being one year of training, my own instrucotrs (the top guys under Samuel Kwok at that time in the whole of the UK) wanted me to open a club. That is one of the many reasons I left.


I love that lion and shark metaphor. I'll steal that and use it myself! But I maintain that Wing Chun is a toothless tiger.

To labour it more we must tune our training into the environment we are likely to be attacked in. Streets, pubs, shops etc. Against one or more assailants who may be armed. Forms, pittery pattery punches and Chi Sao are not required, thanks.

[Troll Virus]

.deleted double post

[Troll Virus]

As for Kamon? I have no beef with him. I respect the fact that he has branched out into another art. I have never met him, but my guess (and this is a guess of course) is that he has seen the limitiations of Wing Chun and is working his way around it. He's begun to do what Bruce Lee did.... open his horizons. He would have no need if WC was all that some people here crack it up to

It's Kevin CHAN numbnuts, which you'd know if you weren't so obsessed with pulling down things you don't understand.
Idiot.

despite my only experience of Wing Chun being one year of training, my own instrucotrs (the top guys under Samuel Kwok at that time in the whole of the UK) wanted me to open a club. That is one of the many reasons I left.

That's utter bullshit.
Firstly, I want you to name your instructors.
Secondly, I want you to explain to us all just how you think you can get away with disrespecting an internationally revered, not to mention stand-up MA guy like Sam Kwok and get away with it.

[Tom Yum]

And how many people have boxers knocked out from the clinch??

Many...these are thai-boxers though.

Generally, once boxers clinch, the ref has to break it up because it is going nowhere.

Some boxers actually cross-train in muaythai (allthough the reverse is more true). Knees, elbows, sweeps and twist-throws work really well from the Thai-clinch.

[Red Rum]

Okay okay I've been away for two days, come back and people are still making the same arguments with each other...

Troll Virus - Sam Kwok would not allow any lower grades to speak with him at the seminar I went to and insisted that he was the best wing chun practitioner in the UK. He might well have been, but you just don't say those kind of things. It may be that when you trained with him he had changed his attitude, but I am just stating my experience of him (which is just one opinion)

As I have reiterated numerous times - I box and yes I have been smacked around like a ragdoll. My point is that these are limited and 'fixed situations' ie you are fighting under rules. Boxers probably have some of the fastest hands in the martial arts world but they are limited by clinches. The same way wing chun guys are pretty limited at long range.

I could believe that Sam Kwok could ask a guy to open a school after one year if he had trained at other wing chun federations, but he would have to be awesome. Indeed, Kevin Chan mentioned that he trained under Sam Kwok for several years and was not asked to open a school until later.

In Kamon the instructors are good. Not just because they know wing chun inside and out but because they know other martial arts, have had fights or show characteristics that they are good teachers.

Unfortunately there will always be different skill levels, but I know that when I teach someone I'll let them try it out. If it doesn't work, we wouldn't teach it. I know several schools where the instructors are deluded in the belief that a bong sao will save you in every situation. It won't.

And as for Thai boxers, you are bang on the money. Thai boxers are some of the greatest street fighters about. The only problem is that if I was with a smaller person who had done Muay Thai the same length of time as me, he would struggle (one/two of my punches would hurt him, whereas it may take him ten or twelve of his punches to hurt me).

And yes I am 25 years old. I started karate when I was 5 and built it from there. And no, I wasn't one of these kids who ran around class messing about - I had to train hard or get my fathers shoe on my backside

[Thai Bri]

I was aksed to open a club by Kevin Frost and Dave Carnell.

Dave's site is here

http://www.impactjkd.co.uk/

I don't know what happened to Kevin Frost.

They were already moving away from WC when my training was underway. As you can see he is now a JKD guy. Like so many WC guys he moved onto something else.

I was a student in Stafford, whereas their club was in Burselm near Stoke. They wanted me to open a Stafford club. That is the simple truth.

In fact there is hardly any mention of WC on his site now, though there is a section on the old days..... I trained in 83 (ish).

I was referring to Kamon as this is what he calls his association. Anyone who can read knows that. Just like anyone could see that Sam Kwok was not in that photo you posted (whilst simulatanously referring to Sam as being in the photo).

I have no need to tell porkies. Look, if I thought it had been good, I would still be doing it. So would Dave Carnell!

Looking at the clips on the Kamon site.... so would they. But they are doing a great deal of MMA instead. As is Alan Orr!

Haw haw haw!

[Hardball]

http://webhost5.nts.jhu.edu/kclub/index.html This is my fomer W.C. Sifu's site. It may prove or disprove some of the arguments on this thread.

[Troll Virus]

I was aksed to open a club by Kevin Frost and Dave Carnell.

Dave's site is here

http://www.impactjkd.co.uk/

I don't know what happened to Kevin Frost.

They were already moving away from WC when my training was underway. As you can see he is now a JKD guy. Like so many WC guys he moved onto something else.

I was a student in Stafford, whereas their club was in Burselm near Stoke. They wanted me to open a Stafford club. That is the simple truth.

In fact there is hardly any mention of WC on his site now, though there is a section on the old days..... I trained in 83 (ish).

I was referring to Kamon as this is what he calls his association. Anyone who can read knows that. Just like anyone could see that Sam Kwok was not in that photo you posted (whilst simulatanously referring to Sam as being in the photo).

I have no need to tell porkies. Look, if I thought it had been good, I would still be doing it. So would Dave Carnell!

Looking at the clips on the Kamon site.... so would they. But they are doing a great deal of MMA instead. As is Alan Orr!

Haw haw haw!

Thank you.
I'll email all of this to Sam and let him judge if he needs to look into the teaching ability/methodology of his students.
I'll not ask him to verify your claims of being asked to teach after one year, but I will ask him if this is common practice.

This is how the chain of command works by the way, as you should know from your own career.
If you don't get satisfaction from your line commander, you move up the chain.
What you don't do, is write your greivances on the toilet wall anonymously, hoping nobody important will see them.

[Troll Virus]

Okay okay I've been away for two days, come back and people are still making the same arguments with each other...

Troll Virus - Sam Kwok would not allow any lower grades to speak with him at the seminar I went to and insisted that he was the best wing chun practitioner in the UK. He might well have been, but you just don't say those kind of things. It may be that when you trained with him he had changed his attitude, but I am just stating my experience of him (which is just one opinion)

That's just not Sams way.
Despite the fact his seminars are always well attended, and he has a lot to cover, with a lot of distraction, he always made a little time for everybody.
I never saw him brag either.

[Red Rum]

Well that is what happened. I could lie and make up a story about me being a student of Sam Kwoks etc if I wanted to discredit him - as I said this was a one off experience where Sam Kwok told his instructors to usher people away from him. He appeared extremely arrogant.

As for Kamon - Kevin Chan is no longer a student of Sam Kwok. That ship sailed a long time ago. Sifu has since trained with many other wing chun experts and for a longer time than he spent under Sam Kwok, so I don't really classify him as strictly a Sam Kwok student. He certainly does not teach under his banner.

Kevin Chan plays with MMA mainly for fun. He always makes a point of saying that his first and best art is wing chun. So you realise how good he is when you see him doing BJJ and boxing!

MMA is important as many wing chun schools insist that you can 'wing chun' on the ground. This is nonsense.

Same as if you get into a fight that becomes a long range fight (like a spar). A boxer will pick you off. So it is important to understand other styles rather than shun them