Wing Chun power

[Troll Virus]

When I first came to this site I would have agreed with you Hardball, but the more I learn the more I wonder if the reason Bri hates WC so much is because he understands it.

That would imply that you/he or both have an understanding of it.
I've yet to see either party exhibit same.

I have a tendency to respect another person's views out of habit,

Sure, that's been noted by members here on many occasions.

but there are some things that shouldn't be respected because they just don't work. I'm forced to consider the possibility that WC may be one of them.

Thank you for the WEIGHT of your opinion.
What was your actual experience of WC by the way?

[Hardball]

I only trained it w.c. for a year but I loved it. I was recovering from a shoulder impingement and rotor cuff injury. I had to give JJJ a break. I was a 2nd degree Brown in JJJ at the time. The throwing and ukeing was killing me with the shoulder injury thus I took up wing chun while rehabing my shoulders.

My instructor was awesome. Straight from the Yip Man lineage. Street smart dude from the Bronx that had a way of teaching that would not only make you love wing chun but respect it also. My Instructor Sifu Julian Sawyer was one of the few certified insturctors under Grandmaster William Chueng. We started every class by warming up on our own followed by chain punches, sil lum tao and the a little individual attention and some chi sao. It was a great group of guys over at Golds Gym. I can understand Thai Bri's disdain because he obvioulsy had a sub par instructor and a sub par training environment.

I left Wing Chun After my shoulders healed up. I'm now chasing my Nidan in JJJ. The only thing I took from wing chun was the sil lum tao form, and the feints and a lot of good memories. Don't let those wing chun guys fool you, they know the anatomy of your body and lots of them can f$$%^k you up. Sifu Sawyer used to bring coconuts to class and break them with his Iron Palm. I'm not sure what level Iron Palm he was but it doesn't matter cause I could not break the coconut with my fist and I have really hard fist.

[Sagacious Lu]

I only trained it w.c. for a year but I loved it. I was recovering from a shoulder impingement and rotor cuff injury. I had to give JJJ a break. I was a 2nd degree Brown in JJJ at the time. The throwing and ukeing was killing me with the shoulder injury thus I took up wing chun while rehabing my shoulders.

My instructor was awesome. Straight from the Yip Man lineage. Street smart dude from the Bronx that had a way of teaching that would not only make you love wing chun but respect it also. My Instructor Sifu Julian Sawyer was one of the few certified insturctors under Grandmaster William Chueng. We started every class by warming up on our own followed by chain punches, sil lum tao and the a little individual attention and some chi sao. It was a great group of guys over at Golds Gym. I can understand Thai Bri's disdain because he obvioulsy had a sub par instructor and a sub par training environment.

I left Wing Chun After my shoulders healed up. I'm now chasing my Nidan in JJJ. The only thing I took from wing chun was the sil lum tao form, and the feints and a lot of good memories. Don't let those wing chun guys fool you, they know the anatomy of your body and lots of them can f$$%^k you up. Sifu Sawyer used to bring coconuts to class and break them with his Iron Palm. I'm not sure what level Iron Palm he was but it doesn't matter cause I could not break the coconut with my fist and I have really hard fist.

Maybe so, but it occurs to me that no one has been able to succeed with it in any sort of sport fight, and I've never seen WC used effectively in a fight even on video. This is a huge red flag for me given the popularity of the system. The fact that the WC community (WT,VT and so on included) is so huge, yet produces so little evidence of it's effectiveness tells me that something is very wrong. The only positive things I've heard about it have been annecdotal personal experiences. I'm not about to comment on a specific school or instructor that I'm not familiar with, but I for one would prefer to spend my time on a system with a proven track record of working the way it's advertised.

[Hardball]

Maybe so, but it occurs to me that no one has been able to succeed with it in any sort of sport fight, and I've never seen WC used effectively in a fight even on video. This is a huge red flag for me given the popularity of the system. The fact that the WC community (WT,VT and so on included) is so huge, yet produces so little evidence of it's effectiveness tells me that something is very wrong. The only positive things I've heard about it have been annecdotal personal experiences. I'm not about to comment on a specific school or instructor that I'm not familiar with, but I for one would prefer to spend my time on a system with a proven track record of working the way it's advertised.

I think I know what you are saying. My answer is that it is a traditional art and they tend to stay within their art. In other words their tournaments are only open to wing chun practioners and are fought with wing chun rules. I'm not a sport guy, I train for the street so perhaps you hit the nail on the head. Wing chun is for the street????? I like street.............sport has too many rules and too much politics. They even cheat. LOL Besides growing up before guns became popular meant that unarmed combat was the norm and not the exception. Now days young bucks just bust caps in each other with Glocks and Barrettas. LOL I would even venture out to say that the legends and founders of Wing Chun did not care about sport but were concerned about the street fights of China. William Chueng is an Urban legend within the Wing Chun community. According to Legend they once had a Hit out on Chueng over in China thus His relocation to Australia. These are all word of mouth tales you hear in Wing Chun. Oh and according to legend Chueng F$$%k up a lot of men in China. LOL

[Sagacious Lu]

Wing chun is for the street????? I like street.............sport has too many rules and too much politics.

I don't buy this for a minute. No, sport fighting is not the only thing in the world and I realize that a lot of people who train could care less if they never compete. I can accept that answer from an individual but out of all the countless WC practitioners out there there would be some who were willing to compete if they were able to do so. The reason we don't see any of them compete is because they just aren't good enough. Besides, if we're talking about an unarmed contest the rules in MMA just aren't restrictive enough to make a difference. In other words if they're losing with the rules than without them they'd just get hurt that much worse. It's a lame excuse; groin strikes and eye gouges don't make nearly as much difference in determining who will win a fight as fundamental skills do. If they can't succeed under the very permisive rules of MMA (substitute kick boxing or MT rules if you want to keep it standing up) than it's because they lack the fundamental skills and athleticism necessary. If they lack the skills and conditioning that they need to compete than it's because the system is deeply flawed.

These are all word of mouth tales you hear in Wing Chun. Oh and according to legend Chueng F$$%k up a lot of men in China. LOL

There are lots of rumors, but if anything the sheer number of rumors you hear make them seem like a smoke screen designed to hide the lack of hard evidence.

[Hardball]

I don't buy this for a minute. No, sport fighting is not the only thing in the world and I realize that a lot of people who train could care less if they never compete. I can accept that answer from an individual but out of all the countless WC practitioners out there there would be some who were willing to compete if they were able to do so. The reason we don't see any of them compete is because they just aren't good enough. Besides, if we're talking about an unarmed contest the rules in MMA just aren't restrictive enough to make a difference. In other words if they're losing with the rules than without them they'd just get hurt that much worse. It's a lame excuse; groin strikes and eye gouges don't make nearly as much difference in determining who will win a fight as fundamental skills do. If they can't succeed under the very permisive rules of MMA (substitute kick boxing or MT rules if you want to keep it standing up) than it's because they lack the fundamental skills and athleticism necessary. If they lack the skills and conditioning that they need to compete than it's because the system is deeply flawed.

I knew someone would say this as I was typing it. LOL I'm not prepared to defend wing chun as if it were on trial.. I only cross trained in it and it was fun. My main art is JJJ. My wing chun experience was very very positive. Oh I forgot, there were a couple of wing chun fighters in the early UFC. They lost. Part of the problem is that the wing chun stance is very telegraphic. If you know wing chun basics you will recognize a wing chun fighter as soon as he/she gets in his/her stance. Why do you think Bruce Lee came up with JKD?. Because wing chun is limited; but all arts are. I just said that wing chun is fun and effective in the street. I studied traditional wing chun but I think I would prefer modified wing chun in the street.

[Tom Yum]

There are lots of rumors, but if anything the sheer number of rumors you hear make them seem like a smoke screen designed to hide the lack of hard evidence.

You never know. TKD has shared the same lack of interest as WC/WT/VT.

Until a few years ago, Tae kwon do was the bully-pulpit for McDojoism and in some circles it still is.

I had been involved in Korean martial arts for a few years, had put some use to it and met a few instructors in different styles; one of them was the U.S. World Taekwon Do junior light-weight and middleweight champion during the mid 1990's, whom was also a highschool classmate.

He competed in the open tournament circuit as well, as that was the only kind of local mixed martial arts tournament at the time. Advanced belts could fight full-contact and since styles and fighters were unequally represented, there was no weight class.

My friend won a good deal of fights by knockout, usually by a spin kick to the head or to the body. He's unheard of outside the Tae kwon do world and that's fine by him; doesn't hurt to be an unintimidating looking individual either.

Unfortunately, the public isn't convinced until you start name-dropping big examples, so here's one example:

Serkhan Yilmaz
K-1 fighting record: 3 Wins, 4 Losses, 2 Wins by KO.
He's won 2/3 of his victories by KO. His losses have been by decision.

Yes, this is only one tae kwon do fighter and its in a sport event with rules.

Ever read about the USMC observation of the South Koreans used in Vietnam? They took apart Vietcong using Tae kwon do.

In the end, its the fighter using the style, right?

[Tom Yum]

There are lots of rumors, but if anything the sheer number of rumors you hear make them seem like a smoke screen designed to hide the lack of hard evidence.

You never know.

Until a few years ago, Tae kwon do was the bully-pulpit for McDojoism and in some circles it still is.

I had been involved in Korean martial arts for a few years, had put some use to it and met a few instructors in different styles; one of them was the U.S. World Taekwon Do junior light-weight and middleweight champion during the mid 1990's, whom was also a highschool classmate.

He competed in the open tournament circuit as well, as that was the only kind of local mixed martial arts tournament at the time. Advanced belts could fight full-contact and since styles and fighters were unequally represented, there was no weight classes.

My friend won a good deal of fights by knockout, regardless of weight class, usually by a spin kick to the head or to the body. He's unheard of outside the Tae kwon do world and that's fine by him; doesn't hurt to be an unintimidating looking individual either - so you can imagine the kind of BS this guy dealt with.

Unfortunately, the public isn't convinced until you start name-dropping big examples, so here's one example:

Serkhan Yilmaz
K-1 fighting record: 3 Wins, 4 Losses, 2 Wins by KO.
He's won 2/3 of his victories by KO. His losses have been by decision.

Yes, this is only one tae kwon do fighter and its in a sport event with rules.

Ever read about the USMC observation of the South Koreans used in the Vietnam war? They took apart Vietcong using both empty handed methods of Tae kwon do and standard military blade work.

At the end of the day, its the fighter using the style, right?

Combat sports styles get fighters used to contact, speed and spontaneity, which is why they can be put to use so quickly. Over time (and I'm talking more than 5 years), the real fighters from traditional martial arts start to appear.

[Sagacious Lu]

In the end, its the fighter using the style, right?

For the most part I agree with this statement, but some systems are just more efficient and effective than others. Some stuff just doesn't work no matter how great the individual doing it might be. As far as your comments about Tae Kwon Do I don't doubt you for a minute, but I'm talking about WC, not TKD. I'm sure there are plenty of TKD practitioners who can legitimately kick ass but that's TKD, they aren't using WC to do it.

[Sagacious Lu]

Over time (and I'm talking more than 5 years), the real fighters from traditional martial arts start to appear.

I'm not talking about all traditional arts- there's lots of good stuff in many of the traditional arts. I'm JUST talking about WC, not all the other types of karate, TKD, kung fu and so on.

[Tom Yum]

Wingchun Experiment

http://redrebelmartialarts.blogspot.com/2006/12/article-on-nhb-wing-chun-fight-team.html

A blog about an experienced wingchun practitioner putting his skills into the NHB circuit.

The author's homepage:

http://www.alanorr.com/

[Thai Bri]

Then if you wish to talk lineage;
My own training was further up that chain than yours, you idiot.
Now how about your specific critique?
When you see pictures of Sam and Paul like this, are you man enough to diss them even online?

Sam isn't even in that picture. Idiot. How can one person be so ignorant? Haw haw haw!

Tom, Alan Orr does not restrict himself to Wing Chun. Not at all. Why is that? Because it doesn't cut the mustard.

Now come on guys. Why must we keep having this little argument. Wing Chun is like the Loch Ness Monster, Talking to the Dead, Mind Reading and all other kinds of fantasy. It's just shite. Just like Systema.

If it weren't we would have some real and verifiable stories of the techniques beig used. No, not a WC tecnichian who felt the need to look outside the art...... But WC techniques!

No! Not in mythical rooftop fights in Hong Kong that didn't even happen neither....

Now here is the challenge. YouTube is mighty big! Find us a good clip of a Wing Chun guy using Wing Chun techniques against a fully resisting non Wing Chun opponent.

Over to you.

[Thai Bri]

No....

Let me help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-232DNU8_TI

In this classic the expert demonstrates superior blocking, although he regularly gets hit. Luckily the devotee is so, well, devoted, that if you heck out the comments even he pretends that he didn't get through the Master's defence after all! Now that kind of bullshit really IS awesome!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7wDsaMsypk

Here you learn how kick over a man who conveniently stands on one leg, push a non resisting opponent through a piece of cardboards and stand of a set of scales whilst someone pretends to try and push you off. Like it says in the comments - AWESOME!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MAFO7dGj3k

Learn the essential lessons here. Watch this and wonder just how ANYBODY could learn to fight without using this essential tool. And, don't forget, the first section could take you 30 minutes if you wanted to develop your mental dody! And we all want to do that, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmfM3H7ZpLE&mode=related&search=

More essential fight training. How do these guys do it!!! AWESOME!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vqrQWsbDFQ&mode=related&search=

Now the ancient secrets are revealed. And how ancient they are, as these moves are quite clearly developed from the Way of the Skinny Armed Tyrannosaurus Rex! AWESOME!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCsLiENU7NE&mode=related&search=

Wow! Free style blocking and attacks! Now you do regularly see fights go like this, and it isn't two people subconciously cooperating in a robotic fashion at all! No Sireee! It's...... (you guessed it!) AWESOME!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdF1nIAfpk

And, of course, this. The Master Game! The Pinnacle of Martial Artistry Fightingly Awesome Brilliance! Two Wing Chun Masters collide. Bow down boys and girls and watch these masters fight! Now to the uninitiated it may look like two drunken 6 year old girls rolling around the gym, arguing over who gets the next lollipop.... But it is genuinely Master Emin Boztepe and Master William Cheung when they fought to the death!

Amazingly neither of them suffered as much as a scratch. Now why is that?

Anyway, no no no! I am stealing your thunder Troll Virus! Over to YOU!. Let us all see actual evidence of your claims! Let's see something AWESOME!

Haw haw haw!

ps - you have a consistent habit of implying that I am somehow cowardly by not challenging these great Masters. That rather conveniently leaves you nice and safe in your hole. I have an idea! Why don't you and I get together for a friendly exchange of ideas on the subject? I have a hall, I have protective equipment (if you want to wear any of it. I won't) and I have a camera. It would be AWESOME!

[Troll Virus]

My question;

When you see pictures of Sam and Paul like this, are you man enough to diss them even online?

TB's response;

Sam isn't even in that picture. Idiot. How can one person be so ignorant? Haw haw haw!

No answer.
Sam may not be in the picture, but Paul is.
Paul is not the sort of person you spout shite to like TB does, as he'd be wearing his rectum as a necklace, Muay Thai or no.

Tom, Alan Orr does not restrict himself to Wing Chun. Not at all. Why is that? Because it doesn't cut the mustard.

Now come on guys. Why must we keep having this little argument. Wing Chun is like the Loch Ness Monster, Talking to the Dead, Mind Reading and all other kinds of fantasy. It's just shite. Just like Systema.

If it weren't we would have some real and verifiable stories of the techniques beig used. No, not a WC tecnichian who felt the need to look outside the art...... But WC techniques!

No! Not in mythical rooftop fights in Hong Kong that didn't even happen neither....

Now here is the challenge. YouTube is mighty big! Find us a good clip of a Wing Chun guy using Wing Chun techniques against a fully resisting non Wing Chun opponent.

Over to you.

Blah Blah Blah.

What this all boils down to is mentally challenged people participating in MA.
For some reason buying a class in 'X' martial arts somehow needs to equate to automatic improvement of ability.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but that just doesn't happen.

I'm so sorry you got NOTHING from your WC training, but that doesn't mean, especially with such a limited experience of it, that you can feel free to demean people you don't know.

Anyway, no no no! I am stealing your thunder Troll Virus! Over to YOU!. Let us all see actual evidence of your claims! Let's see something AWESOME

Well maybe you could refresh everyones memory as to the claims you say I have made?

ps - you have a consistent habit of implying that I am somehow cowardly by not challenging these great Masters.

That's your own paranoid interpretation of what's been said already.
Surely though, if you now say your training in WC was so shit, you could have spoken up once or twice?
Maybe proved a point physically?

I have an idea! Why don't you and I get together for a friendly exchange of ideas on the subject? I have a hall, I have protective equipment (if you want to wear any of it. I won't) and I have a camera. It would be AWESOME!

I'd be happy to.
Think you ought to start working out what I am, when I say I am NOT a 'chunner' though.

A question;
If we meet up, regardless of outcome, would you please leave the CMA section of this board alone?

[Tom Yum]

Tom, Alan Orr does not restrict himself to Wing Chun. Not at all. Why is that? Because it doesn't cut the mustard.

Over to you.

In NHB/MMA you cannot restrict yourself to one style. While some may come from pro-kickboxing or collegiate wrestling, they eventually study other styles to strengthen their weaknesses. MMA itself is becoming a style of sorts.

In that blog, the wing-chunner won his matches using his punching ability - remember, not every NHB/MMA fighter is a skillfull boxer. I've even trained with muaythai practitioners who only threw jabs and crosses from very upright positions, just to set up thai kicks or clinch.

I can agree that WC may have many schools which are McDojo and unfortunately, that's just a by-product of non-serious students, keeping a profitable business and living in a litigious society.

I know what you say about the lack of quality you experienced in WC; I've shared that same experience.

I'll take up the challenge, not to disprove your experience, rather to make the point - ultimately, its the fighter not the style (although some styles get you fighting faster) that determines fight ability.