Wing Chun power

[Troll Virus]

Here's some resistance;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rzwUilgzi4

[Jim Key]

What he said

You do make a very good point there. I agree.

To that I have only to answer that I think far too many people think that it is possible to become a great fighter with only one style.
I would even go as far as saying that I agree with your overall points on WC as a style. Many WC practitioners claim that the style is something it isn't and i can understand your opposition to that. However, I know that my fighting style has improved through studying WC principles.
For example in high speed hand skirmishes as a lot of street fights start out, i have found that I have greatly increased speed and accuracy in defending from the fast flailing arms of an attacker. Though I am not really executing anything that would be considered wing chun, (and these movements are literally no more than a faster, more efficient version of the random flailing my opponent is doing) my training in the style has meant that i practise this type of high speed hand action so that I at least have the second or two i need to get that extra bit of distance using fast (but effectively useless distracting) punches, so that I can attempt a decent Muay Thai offensive on my attacker.

In that respect I have personally found that the style is useful to my progression.

I do however find it infuriating when any solo WC practitioner boasts about his style being an effective fighting style when it quite clearly is nothing more than (in my opinion) a useful additive to an all round fighting style.

[Troll Virus]

I do however find it infuriating when any solo WC practitioner boasts about his style being an effective fighting style when it quite clearly is nothing more than (in my opinion) a useful additive to an all round fighting style.

That's not unique to Wing Chun I assure you.

Here's a positive approach;

http://wingchunfightclub.org/joomla/index.php

The forum is really to discuss fighting with Wing Chun and to help Chunner's that can't fight learn how to use the art properly. I'd say 99% of the guys out there do not know how to use Wing Chun or fight with it - including most Sifus. The art is still pretty secret, and most mainstream wing chun is absolute garbage. No offense. But if you think Wing Chun is weak, ineffective, a narrow skill set, etc then you don't know the real thing. Maybe we can help.

We believe at the end of the day, when it really gets down to it, it doesn't matter what the fight looked like, or how you used your Wing Chun, etc. Only that you are alive and well, and your attacker is not (well).

[Jim Key]

That's not unique to Wing Chun I assure you.

Here's a positive approach;
http://wingchunfightclub.org/joomla/index.php

Oh I have no doubts about that.

[Thai Bri]

Here's some resistance;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rzwUilgzi4

You can assure us you are not looking..... but obviously were all along. You are such a mystery! I mean bull shitter.

Lets look at the clip.

On the positive side there is some good, hard training going on there. Therre is, indeed, training against fully resisting opponents.

Lets look at the Wing Chun in evidence:-

Simultaneous blocks and attack? - none.
Any WC blocking at all? - none.
Any evidence of the sensitivity developed by Chi Sao? - none.

Any WC punches? Well yes! They're the flicky ones that have no effect. The ones that do have an effect are hooks and thrown in a boxing style.

Any WC low kicks? Well yes. They have very little effect.

Anything else from Wing Chun? Errr.... no. Average MMA again. Look at the take downs (not in Wing Chun), the Groundwork (not in Wing Chun) the knees (not in Wing Chun), even a head butt (not in Wing Chun).

Look at the clip again. They are the things that DID have an effect.

Now why is this the default position when people train full on? Why do they revert to MMA, both in movement and technique. Why do they not revert to the style that they demonstrate so nicely in class?

Because, like just about everybody who trains full on has found out, its the MMA type movements that acheive something.

That video illustrates nicely exactly what I have been saying all along.

[Troll Virus]

You can assure us you are not looking..... but obviously were all along. You are such a mystery! I mean bull shitter.

Lets look at the clip.

On the positive side there is some good, hard training going on there. Therre is, indeed, training against fully resisting opponents.

Lets look at the Wing Chun in evidence:-

Simultaneous blocks and attack? - none.
Any WC blocking at all? - none.
Any evidence of the sensitivity developed by Chi Sao? - none.

Any WC punches? Well yes! They're the flicky ones that have no effect. The ones that do have an effect are hooks and thrown in a boxing style.

Any WC low kicks? Well yes. They have very little effect.

Anything else from Wing Chun? Errr.... no. Average MMA again. Look at the take downs (not in Wing Chun), the Groundwork (not in Wing Chun) the knees (not in Wing Chun), even a head butt (not in Wing Chun).

Look at the clip again. They are the things that DID have an effect.

Now why is this the default position when people train full on? Why do they revert to MMA, both in movement and technique. Why do they not revert to the style that they demonstrate so nicely in class?

Because, like just about everybody who trains full on has found out, its the MMA type movements that acheive something.

That video illustrates nicely exactly what I have been saying all along.

Yes, it does illustrate very nicely what you have been saying all along.
What you have been saying all along, is that WC people should really fight with their knees clamped together and their bodies arranged into triangular structures, chainpunching etc, because that is what YOU think of as Wing Chun.

What YOU think of as Wing Chun, is static and stagnant.

To YOU, anyone who pops a pin in your insular little bubble, is a threat.

To YOU, what many would class as a TMA system, is what?
Somehow to be derided for testing it's efficacy?
How do you think it ever got to be a system in the first place?

As for WC in that clip, you've missed out a fair bit.

[Thai Bri]

I popped my own bubble decades ago. That's why I'm qualified to speak on the subject, unlike the sheep amongst us.

And thanks for telling me I missed out loads of WC from the clip..... though you forgot to tell me which biys!

Don't you see the circular arguments? It IS Wing Chun.... and I am just not qualified to see it. AND I have also missed the Wing Chun out.......

No matter what happened, it was Wing Chun.

Doh!

[Troll Virus]

And thanks for telling me I missed out loads of WC from the clip..... though you forgot to tell me which bits!

No I didn't, I simply chose not to.
If you want my 'blow by blow' analysis, I'm only too happy to provide it, should there be any point.

No matter what happened, it was Wing Chun.

Nice one!
So it wasn't boxing/kickboxing/MMA then?
It was Wing Chun!

I popped my own bubble decades ago. That's why I'm qualified to speak on the subject, unlike the sheep amongst us.

So quit being an ass?
Your one year training in WC, twenty years ago (with who you yourself describe as poor instructors) does not qualify you to speak on the subject at all.
Why refer to 'sheep amongst us'?
What makes you a wolf, other than that you chose to take your own path?
You're a 'reformed' sheep perhaps?

Here's the nub of it all for me Thai Bri;
You've been slagging off anything, which doesn't fit in with your own personal ideal of MA for many years on Defend.net.
How many members have simply stopped posting because of your abrasive manner?
It'd be the work of moments to point out far too many.

I don't disagree with many of the things you say, but I find your manner unproductive.
Softee, softee catchee monkey!

Alternatively, bludgeon it over the head and hope it wakes up for another twatting.

Time to grow up.

[Troll Virus]

the biggest logical fallacy of them all - that someone has to prove a negative.

Now here's a fallacy for you.
You've spent many years on here attempting to do just that "Prove a Negative".
You've tried to prove that Wing Chun is ineffective on a multitude of threads here, as well as this one.

Why?
How effective do you think you've been?
What benefit, has anyone gained?

[Uke]

Now here's a fallacy for you.
You've spent many years on here attempting to do just that "Prove a Negative".
You've tried to prove that Wing Chun is ineffective on a multitude of threads here, as well as this one.

Why?
How effective do you think you've been?
What benefit, has anyone gained?

Absolutely true, Troll Virus. However, even if Thai Bri has chosen devil's advocate as his role on this forum, at least he does discuss his views on martial arts intelligently, providing instances where he feels specific techniques will or won't work.

I too see Thai Bri's efforts as wasted energy as he himself has not traveled to find quality instruction to test his theories out on. But at least he has practiced an art, particularly the one that he critiques. I just feel his ideas would better himself and everyone else if he could reformat his arguments into discussing possible pitfalls a wing chun student might fall into rather than condemning a system in its entirety. But still, he offers a measure of insight that everyone recognizes.

Believe me, one of Thai Bri's posts are worth 6,519 times more than some other loser's efforts written to waste all of our time.

[Thai Bri]

So the runner training to run on his hands instead of his feet could still win the marathon?

[Troll Virus]

So the runner training to run on his hands instead of his feet could still win the marathon?

No.
You've used that stupid analogy how many times?

You're about as effective in getting a point across, as this guy is at breaking; http://www.jibjab.com/JokeBox/JokeBo...9/jokeid/65937

[Uke]

As an afterthought, maybe Uke can help explain this thing in simpler terms. Uke, you and I have discussed ad nauseum the differences in various boxers' styles, yes?

If one boxer can differ so much from another, even though they are all working with the same basic tools and all within the same basic style, how can you classify the "style" as any one thing anyway? When we compare and contrast boxers, it's easy to acknowledge and accept that there is a pretty remarkable difference between, say, a Rocky Marciano and a Muhammad Ali. Yet, both were boxers of the highest order.

Doesn't it stand to reason that Wing Chun people (or wrestlers, or katateka, or judoka, or MMA-guys, or anyone-else-who-fights) would have their own methods for applying/training the tools of their chosen art? Doesn't it make sense that even within a given style, there are more and less effective means of application?

We sportsmen understand this semi-instinctually. Perhaps, as a fan of boxing and other combative sports, you can put into words the basic idea of what I'm trying to communicate? After all, if you look back, plenty of "real" fighters have said the same thing. From Bruce Lee to Miyamoto Musashi, the common thread is that it's not the style, but the preparation, the training, and the mindset of the fighter that makes the difference.

Very good post, Mike Brewer. Kudos. But you must realize that logic is not the cornerstone of this debate, and therefore logic cannot prevail here. Bitter feelings of betrayal and disappointment are what fuels Thai Bri's statements. That's why above I wrote he should reformat his statement to do something positive for himself and others. Even a cautionary message would be better than his condemning one.

But yours was a good, well thought out post just the same.

[Troll Virus]

Bitter feelings of betrayal and disappointment are what fuels Thai Bri's statements.

I'd say that's overly kind.

[Sagacious Lu]

Doesn't it stand to reason that Wing Chun people (or wrestlers, or katateka, or judoka, or MMA-guys, or anyone-else-who-fights) would have their own methods for applying/training the tools of their chosen art? Doesn't it make sense that even within a given style, there are more and less effective means of application?

We sportsmen understand this semi-instinctually. Perhaps, as a fan of boxing and other combative sports, you can put into words the basic idea of what I'm trying to communicate? After all, if you look back, plenty of "real" fighters have said the same thing. From Bruce Lee to Miyamoto Musashi, the common thread is that it's not the style, but the preparation, the training, and the mindset of the fighter that makes the difference.

It sounds like what you're getting at is that the training methods make the difference.