Wing Chun power

[Thai Bri]

Here we go again. Trying to convince us that something that clearly is not Wing Chun actually is. Ground and pound has no more to do with Wing Chun trapping than playing blind man's buff. We all have arms and legs, and they can only move in certain ways. So I suppose it is easy for the wilfully blind to fall into the trap (great pun...) of drawing parallels that aren't there.

To all the None Trolls..... Yes, people who have been in the WC world have gone onto become great fighters.

But none of them fight like you are taught to fight in Wing Chun, and there ability is down to the techniques they gained from the other arts they were exposed to. In fact, that is why Wing Chun guys move on so offten anyway, beause they cannot find what they need within Wing Chun.

[Troll Virus]

But none of them fight like you are taught to fight in Wing Chun,

I thought your whole point was that Wing Chun didn't teach you how to fight?

and their ability is down to the techniques they gained from the other arts they were exposed to.

What a simplified world you live in.

In fact, that is why Wing Chun guys move on so often anyway, beause they cannot find what they need within Wing Chun.

OK. Could we have some statistics now please?
Retention rates of students within Wing Chun compared to MMA will do nicely thank you.

[Sagacious Lu]

Sagacious,
At real risk of sounding esoteric here, I think you're wrong. When I joined the Army, for example, I expected them to be tough on me so I would be an effective killer and fighter. I didn't expect drill sergeants to come through each day with a ruler and measure to make sure my socks were in precise 4" rolls. I didn't expect them to be so picky about whether my boot laces crossed from right to left or left to right, but they were. I didn't expect that I'd get screamed at for calling a marching command on the wrong foot, but I did. I, like you, got pissed because it seemed to me that they were yelling at me about everything except the soldiering part - the fighting and killing. Butone day, I understood why all that superfluous stuff was there.

Does having perfectly shined boots help me kill bad guys? Does having my socks rolled and lined up in 4" rolls help me kill bad guys? Does it help keep me from getting killed. Unequivocably, the answer is - YES.

All those mundane and seemingly unrelated activities taught me attention to even minute detail. They taught me to look around and be aware of who was screwing up on my team and get them right. It taught me to prioritize the little things under extreme pressure. And the way they had it set up, it taught me valuable fighting skills for the field. Did you know that 4" is roughly one mil in a military rifle scope at 100 meters? Recognizing what 4" looked like from rolling all those socks suddenly became one of the things that helped me accurately judge distance and better kill bad guys. Not to mention the habit of having all kinds of procedures to go through before anyone can get anything done is precisely why operational security in the military can be maintained. So all that stuff may not look like it relates, but it in fact lays the bedrock on many of the things a warrior has to build.

I agree completely that there are more direct routes to fighting ability, but many of us don't do martial arts strictly to be able to fight. I train as much to learn how to think as how to fight. Maybe in that light, you can see why there are so many styles and so many different (but euqlly valid) ideas out there.

This is an eloquent post, and I wouldn't try to argue with the points you've made. However, the things you're describing are about discipline, which is vital to any army regardless of how they may lace their boots. I'm sure that some of the things that the military does that seem like simple discipline to a civilian like myself probably have practical applications that I wouldn't understand at first glance. However, that really doesn't have anything to do with the kind of nonsense that you see in a lot of styles. In the time that I spent on Shotokan, Kempo and Kung Fu I was required to practice a lot of things that just don't make any sense. Requiring soldiers to roll their socks a certain way may add something to the military, but they do a lot more than sit around rolling socks and lacing boots all day- if they did than that's all they'd be good for. Sure, you can find useful techniques in pretty much any system, but the fact that there is something useful in there doesn't change the fact that there are many dubious (which is a polite way of saying pointless) practices in a lot of them. I'm not talking about things that become clear as you learn over time, I'm talking about things that seem more and more useless the more I learn. I'm not trying to belittle anyone but I think it's wrong to pretend that all styles are equal and that it's the individual rather than the art that matters when there are in fact systems out there that advocate things that simply do not work. I don't really care if some people see that as being disrespectful because respect has to be earned and there are ideas out there that deserve contempt, rather than respect.

[Tom Yum]

However, that really doesn't have anything to do with the kind of nonsense that you see in a lot of styles. In the time that I spent on Shotokan, Kempo and Kung Fu I was required to practice a lot of things that just don't make any sense..

Forms as practiced by most martial arts are not for fighting and do seem useless - especially when the form of fighting the style resorts to is a watered down version of American Kickboxing.

I agree that you have to look long and hard to find a TMA program that is pure combat or fight oriented, but they do exist and sadly they aren't all in the yellow pages.

I'm not trying to belittle anyone but I think it's wrong to pretend that all styles are equal and that it's the individual rather than the art that matters when there are in fact systems out there that advocate things that simply do not work. I don't really care if some people see that as being disrespectful because respect has to be earned and there are ideas out there that deserve contempt, rather than respect.

Contempt is the exact opposite of respect, right.

I know of a shotokan black belt in Houston, TX who can and will spar any other stand up fighter toe to toe, full-contact. I've critiqued the hand-pulling back method before when it comes to punching because I see it as an opening for a hook that I know I can land, but this guy is explosive, has impeccable timing and knockout power.

Kenpo karate, similar story.

Gong-fu, look no farther than Boar. I'd wager some of his stuff is being used today, but probably not by corporate 9-5 types.

More and more people are studying boxing, muaythai and jujitsu every day because they are marketed well in the ring, will keep you fit and you can use them almost immediately; they're bad ass arts and I love training them myself but it doesn't hurt to keep an open mind to the MA world around you.

In countries where criminal rights are fewer, police officers use all kinds of traditional MA stuff in order to subdue or injure their targets.

[Troll Virus]

This is an eloquent post, and I wouldn't try to argue with the points you've made. However, the things you're describing are about discipline, which is vital to any army regardless of how they may lace their boots. I'm sure that some of the things that the military does that seem like simple discipline to a civilian like myself probably have practical applications that I wouldn't understand at first glance. However, that really doesn't have anything to do with the kind of nonsense that you see in a lot of styles.

Well it does surely?
If you are to have faith in what you train, then you have to accept that there are things you may be asked to do, which you don't understand (yet)?
Oftentimes they are indeed nonsense, but sometimes they are not.

Requiring soldiers to roll their socks a certain way may add something to the military, but they do a lot more than sit around rolling socks and lacing boots all day- if they did than that's all they'd be good for.

See there is a lesson there.
It's not the activity, but the automatic following of a directive that is important.

Sure, you can find useful techniques in pretty much any system, but the fact that there is something useful in there doesn't change the fact that there are many dubious (which is a polite way of saying pointless) practices in a lot of them. I'm not talking about things that become clear as you learn over time, I'm talking about things that seem more and more useless the more I learn. I'm not trying to belittle anyone but I think it's wrong to pretend that all styles are equal and that it's the individual rather than the art that matters when there are in fact systems out there that advocate things that simply do not work.

The "individual" always has the choice of which system they practice and for whatever reason.
As 'individuals', we all have different objectives.
I can respect your reasoning, so it's only fair that you respect mine?
We can disagree though and that's where discussion gets interesting?

I don't really care if some people see that as being disrespectful because respect has to be earned and there are ideas out there that deserve contempt, rather than respect.

That's a little 'close-minded' for me.
I personally make a huge definition between 'respect' and 'trust'.
To me, everyone get's 100% respect and 0% trust as a starting point.
Everything after that point adds or subtracts to those figures.
Respect can be earned yes, but it can also be given freely.
It's sad when it is squandered.

Trust is different.

[Troll Virus]

Forms as practiced by most martial arts are not for fighting and do seem useless - especially when the form of fighting the style resorts to is a watered down version of American Kickboxing.

Yeah, in a sporting environment they do.
The claimed superiority of many arts/practice really boils down to how close they are, in everyday practice, to the sport format 'de jour'.
Real encounters do not resemble sport however.

I agree that you have to look long and hard to find a TMA program that is pure combat or fight oriented, but they do exist and sadly they aren't all in the yellow pages.

True.
I loved Jim Carey's fun-clip as a Karate Instructor.
No doubt this exists on a laughable scale, but is this down to the style, the instructor, how the art is practiced or something else?
Is an instructor really to be held responsible for the fact that a student didn't ask the right questions or even think to question the practice at all?

Contempt is the exact opposite of respect, right.

Yeah.
It's been getting close to that of late.

I know of a shotokan black belt in Houston, TX who can and will spar any other stand up fighter toe to toe, full-contact. I've critiqued the hand-pulling back method before when it comes to punching because I see it as an opening for a hook that I know I can land, but this guy is explosive and has impeccable timing.

Same here.
I know Karate/TKD/disabled people who would serve a double helping of hurt to many supposed "experts" on here.

Gong-fu, look no farther than Boar. I'd wager some of his stuff is being used today, but probably not by corporate types.

Good old Boar.
Hope he comes back.

More and more people are studying boxing, muaythai and jujitsu every day because they will keep you fit and you can use them almost immediately; they're bad ass arts and I love training them myself but it doesn't hurt to keep an open mind to the world around you.

Absolutely.
Where's the harm?

[Thai Bri]

What has retention rates got to do with anything?

If anything, more people leave when training is hard. When it is easy they stay, swallowing that nonsense that they really are learning how to fight.

[LittleDemon]

???????? omg!!!!!! very un-cool.

[Red Rum]

Interesting stuff. I would just say that it is unwise to say that one martial art is rubbish without understanding that it is usually the fighter who makes it what it is. I have seen absolutely dreadful practitioners of wing chun, and amazing practitioners of wing chun.
This is true for most martial arts I have encountered.

I will admit that most arts are designed for certain things and do not really do that well practically. I train at a derivative of TKD (just for fitness) and the people there do not understand how to fight. However, they can still do things that I can't (high roundhouse kicks etc) which takes skill.

I think any good practitioner of an art has to fully admit their place in the martial arts world. For me, I am happy to admit that wing chun will not really get you fit (might get you a little fitter, but that's as far as it goes). I will not be able to do high kicks or flying kicks.
I learnt wing chun because I wanted to learn adaptability, fast hands, the ability to sense tension in people and how to use it against them.

People learn BJJ mainly for sport, for fitness, to become flexible etc. You could pick holes in it (everytime I grapple I can easily hit my partner/eye gouge him etc), but the point is that people do BJJ accompanied with other arts, just like wing chun. So when people say 'wing chunners move on to other arts because it doesn't teach them anything' that is nonsensical.

There are gaps in wing chun. But there are gaps in every other system that you do. Some arts don't go to ground, some don't fight at long range, some don't fight at close range, some have slow speed, some rely too much on strength.

At the end of the day, if you can go to your Sifu, ask them a question and they answer it well, you know you are doing the right art. If you go to a Sifu ask them a question (as I have done previously) and they can't answer it, then you are doing the wrong art

[Tom Yum]

People learn BJJ mainly for sport, for fitness, to become flexible etc.

And to develop formidable grappling/ground fighting. Wingchun has decent middle distance and infighting from what I can tell, but very minimal grappling and no ground game.

Good point in bringing up the openings you see for strikes while grappling.

[Sagacious Lu]

The "individual" always has the choice of which system they practice and for whatever reason.
As 'individuals', we all have different objectives.
I can respect your reasoning, so it's only fair that you respect mine?
We can disagree though and that's where discussion gets interesting?

That's a little 'close-minded' for me.
I personally make a huge definition between 'respect' and 'trust'.
To me, everyone get's 100% respect and 0% trust as a starting point.
Everything after that point adds or subtracts to those figures.
Respect can be earned yes, but it can also be given freely.
It's sad when it is squandered.

Trust is different.

I'm willing to respect another man's reasoning even though it differs from mine, but if you propose to learn how to punch by standing on your head while saying the alphabet backwards than no, your reasoning doesn't deserve to be respected. You might just find a good puncher who regularly stands on his head while reciting the alphabet but that in no way validates the practice. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but there are some people who are just dead wrong and yet try to defend their view by insisting that it's a matter of opinion- these people do not have different opinions they have delusions.

[Tom Yum]

I'm willing to respect another man's reasoning even though it differs from mine, but if you propose to learn how to punch by standing on your head while saying the alphabet backwards than no, your reasoning doesn't deserve to be respected. .

That's an awesome visual...lol.

But seriously, what style advocates punching by standing on one's head while saying the alphabet backwards?

You might just find a good puncher who regularly stands on his head while reciting the alphabet but that in no way validates the practice. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but there are some people who are just dead wrong and yet try to defend their view by insisting that it's a matter of opinion- these people do not have different opinions they have delusions.

How is it a delusion if they've used it?

I don't think all traditional martial artists are dead wrong. If they can knock another guy out with a punch, even though it looks a little different than another style's, its still an effective punch.

A real result is more than an opinion, isn't it?

Boxers are bound to be the best punchers around (for obvious reasons), but if a wing chun fighter knocks a guy down or out with punches, he's used his skills effectively.

[Troll Virus]

I'm willing to respect another man's reasoning even though it differs from mine, but if you propose to learn how to punch by standing on your head while saying the alphabet backwards than no, your reasoning doesn't deserve to be respected. You might just find a good puncher who regularly stands on his head while reciting the alphabet but that in no way validates the practice. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but there are some people who are just dead wrong and yet try to defend their view by insisting that it's a matter of opinion- these people do not have different opinions they have delusions.

You are using a premise that fighting ability can be taught.

Isn't that delusional?

I know that'll seem a strange question on an MA forum but, isn't it?

Look at your mediums of proof.
Are they conclusive/provable/unshakeable?

[Tom Yum]

To all the None Trolls..... Yes, people who have been in the WC world have gone onto become great fighters.

But none of them fight like you are taught to fight in Wing Chun, and there ability is down to the techniques they gained from the other arts they were exposed to. In fact, that is why Wing Chun guys move on so offten anyway, beause they cannot find what they need within Wing Chun.

Allmost all of the pure boxers who have stepped into the ring in an MMA match have been beat.

Art Jimmerson, who fought in one of the early UFCs, was a pro-heavyweight who won about half of his fights by knockout. He still got takendown and submitted by Royce Gracie.

Melton Bowen, a great heavyweight fighter (35W-28KO-9L) got taken apart by Steve Jennum, a police officer and part-time ninjitsu instructor.

Western boxers have done so-so in K-1 type fights, probably taking as many victories as they have losses.

Does this mean that boxing is an inferior art?

No way.

Boxers are the most devastating punchers but beyond that, they are in a different league. The boxers that have done the best in MMA have cross trained in muaythai and have invested many hours in takedown defense and surviving on the ground.

Same thing as wingchun fighters; their art is more divided between striking, kicking and stomping, but the same idea holds. Open handed strikes can cause knockouts just as well as fists.

[Tom Yum]

You are using a premise that fighting ability can be taught. Isn't that delusional? I know that'll seem a strange question on an MA forum but, isn't it?

I think most fighters are made, not entirely born. That's just my opinion.