Wing Chun power

[Hardball]

Fighting ability can indeed be taught. That is how militaries work. Relatively few soldiers knew how to fight when they joined. Almost all were instructed - taught - how to do so after their induction. Same with fighters in sport. There was a time when Oscar De La Hoya, Tito Ortiz, or even Joe Calzaghe simply did not have the capability or ability to fight at the level they now can. How do you suppose they got there?

Of course fighting ability can be taught. Now the will to fight is tougher, but the ability part is not only possible, but common.

As fighting skills improve from being taught/coached---then courage goes up and improves also.

[Sagacious Lu]

How is it a delusion if they've used it?

I don't think all traditional martial artists are dead wrong. If they can knock another guy out with a punch, even though it looks a little different than another style's, its still an effective punch.

A real result is more than an opinion, isn't it?

I'd never make a sweeping statement like "all traditional martial artists are dead wrong" because that really would be ignorant. I'm also not going to try and pass judgement on every last technique/training practice out there. I did in fact learn a lot in the time I spent on kung fu because there definately are useful ideas in the system, but I also wasted a lot of time. Given the amount of time and hard work I put into my training I could have progressed a lot more quickly somewhere else. I can give you a specific example of the type of thing I'm talking about. I'm sure you're familiar with the idea of smothering your opponents punch and simultaneosly countering with a punch of your own. We had this concept in Tiger/Crane kung fu, but the motion in the form that was supposed to teach it to you was so abstract that you couldn't even compare it to shadow boxing. When I say abstract I mean it's so far removed from the actual technique that we may as well have been doing my upside-down-backwards-alphabet drill for all the good that it did. We also had a (strictly) choreographed way that we would practice it that was associated with that piece of the form. In several years of training this way I only saw it done once in live sparring. When I got to the boxing gym I looked around and the idea was a staple for everyone who had any experience there. We don't have any choreographed drills though, instead my coaches put a focus mit on one hand and a 16 oz. glove on the other- it isn't scripted, you don't know when it's coming and if your timing is off you will get hit- not very hard but enough that you know you screwed up. Now not only can I frequently make this work personally against my sparring partners, I observe others using it regularly. My old teacher would tell you that I learned that technique in his school and that it's kung fu, but that really isn't true. I could practice his choreographed drill day and night for years and NEVER develop the timing and positioning necessary to use it to defend myself. Sure, he made me aware of the idea but the students there (including myself at the time) couldn't use it against a live opponent because the way they train it simply does not work. Claiming that those choreographed drills that we were doing are an effective way to learn counter-punching isn't an opinion, it's just wrong. Now, one could train both ways and you would still learn, but the time spent practicing the choreography could be better used working on something else. The hell of it is that those choreographed drills are a mandatory part of the system. If you stop practicing them than you are not practicing Tiger/Crane kung fu anymore, and the system is loaded with this kind of thing.

[Sagacious Lu]

*Edit* Sorry, double post.

[Tom Yum]

I could practice his choreographed drill day and night for years and NEVER develop the timing and positioning necessary to use it to defend myself. Sure, he made me aware of the idea but the students there (including myself at the time) couldn't use it against a live opponent because the way they train it simply does not work. Claiming that those choreographed drills that we were doing are an effective way to learn counter-punching isn't an opinion, it's just wrong. Now, one could train both ways and you would still learn, but the time spent practicing the choreography could be better used working on something else. The hell of it is that those choreographed drills are a mandatory part of the system. If you stop practicing them than you are not practicing Tiger/Crane kung fu anymore, and the system is loaded with this kind of thing.

Yeah, it sounds like you were in an "art" school more than a "martial" school. Especially f you guys had to resort to diluted American kickboxing for fight training,

Shotokan karateka use all of their forms moves in full-contact sparring; 4 directional blocking, 4 basic kicks, back fist, lunge punch and reverse punch etc

They do it full-contact as well.

Looks like the school you chose simply wasn't offering what you hoped to learn.

[shaolin-warrior]

Lu,
You make a valid point, My Kung Fu training In my Opinion is like a dance class. It has help me with my balance and my timing and my ability to put 100% of my body weight behind my Kempo techniques which I feel if a far superior art. But we have students at our school that just train in Kung Fu and they would take great offense at the statement I made. Let me also say that because they train only in Kung Fu they have adapted it to fit their needs, and are quite good at what they do. We learn 5 animals and at second degree black you pick the one that best suits your body type or style. Lets face it a short person cant pull off crane techniques and a skinny person cant pull off black tiger techniques. Kempo can be effective at any rank if you train what you've been taught. Kung Fu on the other hand is more intrinsic and you have to be a higher rank before you can become proficient enough to pull it apart and realize what you already know. I'll agree with you that it's way to much time spent for the reward. But some people want that and the reward at that point is well deserved.

[Sagacious Lu]

Yeah, it sounds like you were in an "art" school more than a "martial" school. Especially f you guys had to resort to diluted American kickboxing for fight training,

Shotokan karetka use all of their forms moves in full-contact sparring; 4 directional blocking, 4 basic kicks, back fist, lunge punch and reverse punch etc

They do it full-contact as well.

Looks like the school you chose simply wasn't offering what you hoped to learn.

I don't see a connection to American Kickboxing (which I don't know much about) what I described was tradtional material from tiger/crane kung fu. I spent much less time on Shotokan than I did on kung fu so I can't speak in as much depth about the style, but I definately saw a lot of choreography there too. I'm really not trying to pick apart every last "traditional" style out there, but the training practices that make up tiger/crane kung fu just doesn't measure up. No matter how talented and dedicated the individual fighter may be the style itself will sabotage that fighter's growth by wasting hour after hour of precious training time on choreography. In the past I kept repeating the old cliche that it's the individual not the art, but that isn't always true; some of them are effective ways to learn a set of skills and others are just horribly inefficient.

[Sagacious Lu]

Lu,
You make a valid point, My Kung Fu training In my Opinion is like a dance class. It has help me with my balance and my timing and my ability to put 100% of my body weight behind my Kempo techniques which I feel if a far superior art. But we have students at our school that just train in Kung Fu and they would take great offense at the statement I made. Let me also say that because they train only in Kung Fu they have adapted it to fit their needs, and are quite good at what they do. We learn 5 animals and at second degree black you pick the one that best suits your body type or style. Lets face it a short person cant pull off crane techniques and a skinny person cant pull off black tiger techniques. Kempo can be effective at any rank if you train what you've been taught. Kung Fu on the other hand is more intrinsic and you have to be a higher rank before you can become proficient enough to pull it apart and realize what you already know. I'll agree with you that it's way to much time spent for the reward. But some people want that and the reward at that point is well deserved.

Thanks, I've never denied that there were some very valid ideas in the system, just that there is a lot of waste that has to be slogged through as well. Would you agree that those who do spend enough time to see substantial gains could have attained those skill more quickly by doing something else?

[shaolin-warrior]

absolutely

[Thai Bri]

Of course fighters are made. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

We are all born with different skills and abilities in different amounts to each other. So some will pick fighting up more naturally. Some.

The rest? They work, they get better. They become fighters.

Like so many things in the fighting world, it is that simple. But others choose to complicate it, and they get lost in a useless and illogical maize.

[Troll Virus]

Of course fighters are made. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

Yet, without a breath in between, you go on to say;

We are all born with different skills and abilities in different amounts to each other.

Explain that to me please.

[Red Rum]

And to develop formidable grappling/ground fighting. Wingchun has decent middle distance and infighting from what I can tell, but very minimal grappling and no ground game.

Good point in bringing up the openings you see for strikes while grappling.

You are 100% correct. That's why we (under Kevin Chan) work on BJJ.

I think the danger is that if you get someone on the floor, is trying not to 'follow them' down there. ie trying to arm bar them in the middle of a pub etc. It's better to clinch and get back to a safer position, ie on your feet.

I have grappled people on the floor before and ended up with his mates kicking my head in.

[Thai Bri]

Yet, without a breath in between, you go on to say;



Explain that to me please.

You really need that explaining? Do you think we are all clones at birth?

Doh!

[Tom Yum]

No matter how talented and dedicated the individual fighter may be the style itself will sabotage that fighter's growth by wasting hour after hour of precious training time on choreography. In the past I kept repeating the old cliche that it's the individual not the art, but that isn't always true; some of them are effective ways to learn a set of skills and others are just horribly inefficient.

It boils down to preferences.

You've got a strong preference for combat or combat sports. Some folks are happy learning some useful self-defense, but are more interested in conditioning, meditation, culture etc where aikido, karate, gong-fu and some of the more traditional korean arts are involved.

There are traditional arts that are heavily involved in combat sports/combat or instructors that emphasize that area in there teaching: most styles of silat, the Lacy family (Choy lay fut gong fu), Boar's gong fu, combat hapkido, tukong musool, hwarang do, some schools/instructors of tang soo do, some schools/instructors of kenpo karate (usually Chinese kenpo or kenpo jujitsu), shotokan karate etc.

The challenge is for the beginner to find exactly what he or she is looking for, which is difficult since most do not have backgrounds in the martial arts and can get sucked into the "Yeah we do that in this style too..." when its not really the case.

[HuSanYan]

just saw the video

and it was awful, I am glad that I do not do Wing Chun

[Red Rum]

and it was awful, I am glad that I do not do Wing Chun

Which video are you referring to? And what art do you do?