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Remember this post Mike Brewer ran from and closed the thread in New fight stories?
IF and WHEN you stop deriding and chiding my posts...and actually step back realize you ain't right every time you post I'll be happy to explain the problems I saw in your "After action report" However I WONT have time to do THAT properly until AFTER the seminar. THEN I'd LOVE to take every post you made on the subject and discuss each and every one as though it WAS an after action report...No BS...no attitude...and NO TROLLS...You agree to a PROFESSIONAL discussion of your "After Action Report" As though you turned it in for critique instead of praise and I'd be more than happy to "contribute" As well as explain EXACTLY why I busted your balls so hard for your posts about it in the first place...but I wont be trapped into answering 50 thousand trolls so when I can't answer all of them you can claim some kind of victory.
Deal? or can I just expect Jubaji to troll and you to attack me again? Or are you Man and Moderator enough to step up and keep the trolls out of the thread and honestly discuss your "report."
You are after all a SUPER Moderator and supposed EXPERT and many kids look up to you on here as a role model. So YOUR examples will be followed...you really don't wanna save me the trouble and remove the testosterone flavored BS from your post yourself? We BOTH know most of that post was a slam at ME and your USING MMA on the job ...but ya didn't and you didn't even use clear judgment of your options either...at least the way you told it. I didn't hit you any harder than anyone else who read that as an after action report, of a supposed Martial arts forum Moderator and MMA trainer and Vunak Student...it read like a mall cop, thinking like a mall cop...NOT a pro, moonlighting as a Loss Specialist...think about it....then get back to me...
Of course he chose to close the thread...Curious why? Because he was afraid I would post this...
I'll just quote you and the post number since you closed the thread rather than keep out trolls and discuss it like a man.
Post 1
In post 1 we learn the is an unknown subject you want to check out at the jewelry counter ..." I could tell even on camera that he was making the ladies behind the counter nervous. So I headed up to their location, and my partner stayed behind to keep the whole thing on as many cameras as we could. He checked form the camera's eye view for any visible weapons, and I scanned as I walked to see if he had lookouts with him. I couldn't identify any, but I still planned out my routes for engaging, disengaging, and giving chase if it came to that while still allowing for cover and concealment if he turned out to be armed. As I got close, I could smell booze, and I noticed a big bulge in his jacket pocket. I waved off the jewelry counter ladies to keep them from acknowledging me, and I circled to get a better look at his pocket. It was a rear-facing slash pocket, so I could see inside. It looked like he just had a wad of napkins nad random papers, but those can easily conceal a weapon, so I moved closer with care. His left hand was visible, and because its position dragged his jacket up, I could see his waistband on that side. All clear. SO I determined I'd need to be more careful of his right, since it was the one with the bulge, and since it was still an unknown."
Here we establish you have no idea if he is armed or even a threat, there are multiple ladies behind the counter and you have cameras and a partner to back you up.
"He hadn't broken any laws yet, so I couldn't legally take any action. However, I believe in stop-hitting, so when I walked up to the jewelry counter, I made sure my radio and handcuffs were in plain sight. I also kept the counter in between us and gave myself at least three offensive capabilities if things started to go bad. I had a pen in my hand (a favorite weapon because of its innocuous nature), my handcuffs (excellent brass knuckles, if the situation dictates), and a convenient "30% Off Sale" sign on the counter that could act as both a bludgeon and a shield. My presence made him very nervous, and he immediately offered to allow me the chance to talk with the jewelry ladies while he "thought about his purchase some more." He walked in figure 8's around me, with my partner relaying his position via a numbering system we have worked out for literally every part of the store. I knew where he was all the time, and I knew what he was doing with his hands. My partner told me he had attempted to approach the counter again four times, but quickly changed direction when he saw I was still there. He finally left through an exterior door to the parking lot. I waited for a few minutes and then headed down to see what kind of car he was driving, and he was coming back in the store. I made up a radio call (prearranged for just such cases) and headed back up with a fake report of a workman's comp claim to maintain a presence at the counter again. Again, he looked nervous and suspicious, visibly sweating under his far-too-heavy coat. We scanned again, since he had a new and out of sight opportunity to acquire weapons, and came up with the same results. If he was going to do something, it would be me against him, and we'd both be armed in some manner or another. The difference between us was that I was limited as to what I could do and he was not. I made up my mind that I'd stay ready to stab him right through the eyeball with that trusty pen if I had to, but that I'd try to take him down and put him in cuffs without life-changing violence if it was at all possible."
And here the amateur behavior begins...You don’t know if he is armed or not... so you make sure he sees your Radio and handcuffs...and you put the counter between you and him so you could attack with either your pen, your handcuffs or throw the sign at him. And again, you scan the room to look for more weapons and decide yep, You've made the right choices... stabbing him in the eye is your plan of action if things get ugly...and you're going to throw the sign for distraction. And, we see that if he doesn't do anything violent you plan on arresting him without violence.
So far what I get is you put a barrier between you and the unknown threat planning to stab him in the eye with the pen, but you weren't going to stab him in the eye unless he started shooting witnesses...you said he could pull it and demand merchandise but you wouldn’t stab him in the eye until after he started shooting...
Post 31 you state how as a professional you have prepared for this situation and are ready to implement these options.
"If it was a matter of merchandise, of course the guy would have walked away clean. But I was not, am not, and will not get caught in the headlights because I simply expect him to be satisfied with merchandise. See, what I developed was what we professionals like to call a "plan." A "plan" allows us to prepare for the eventualities of a situation. For example -
Option A - the guy pulls a gun and demands the jewelry. We hand it over, and he goes away. Merchandise replaceable, injuries = 0.
Option B - the guy pulls a gun and demands the jewelry. He then decides it might be a good idea to shoot the witnesses, so he gets a pen in the eyeball and a righteous ass-whupping from someone who was not content to stand idly by and get shot for lack of fighting back.
Option C - the guy demands the jewelry but does not have a weapon. I take him down with a minimum of force and arrest him per local laws and store policy.
Option D - the guy buys a nice bracelet for his wife and goes home without incident."
This is what REALLY proved to me you have no understanding of the dynamics of a life and death struggle outside the Rambo fantasies in your head... YOU will be the first person he shoots because you already showed him your cuffs and radio, HE KNOWS YOU ARE SECURITY!! So YOU die on the first shot...hard to fight back now huh? (god forbid the robber not be stupid and take 3 steps back before drawing his weapon) Not that it would have mattered from behind a barrier (the counter you put between you for "safety") when your chosen weapon was an ink pen. And now you see why I called it a Rambo fantasy...because that's what you were doing, fantasizing about shit that wasn’t even possible due to your own actions!! You got behind a barrier that prevented you from closing the distance needed to deploy your weapon!! An amateur move that shows NO understanding what you are doing, especially since your weapon of choice demanded you wait until he was shooting before you could use it as did your plan according to your own post... Further the thought with how you were going to throw the sign and clipboard at him to distract him from shooting you while you either jump over or run around the counter to get close enough to stab him in the eye with the ink pen you so wisely chose...all the while he is shooting at you...notice due to throwing the sign and clipboard you don’t even have a free hand to attempt to deflect his weapon hand while you try to stab him in the eye with your pen while he is moving and shooting you...Seeing the Rambo fantasy unravel yet?
Now before you start whining about me picking on you...IF you had used Verbal judo like I suggested to make him think Sheriff deputies were in the store, then instead of showing him your radio and cuffs (thus "telling" him you're trying to intimidate him...wanna bet he noticed the lack of any weapon and was made more confident?) You could have stayed close enough to use the clip board EDGE to attack his weapon arm/hand as he tried to deploy the weapon, this could be "bounced" under his chin/nose to down him after stopping and controlling the draw and wouldn’t require you to wait until he started shooting as in your so called plan. No need for trying a low percentage move like stabbing him in the eye with your pen from behind a counter...AFTER he starts shooting!!! You didn’t have to resort to half assed Rambo fantasies that would have gotten you fired at minimum and probably killed along with all the other witnesses either, but you did...MMA mindset obviously didn’t prepare you for security work or SD when that’s the thought process you got from training it.
All this testosterone flavored Bullshit REALLY stands out now doesn’t it? " I was well prepared" ..... “I had ten sets of non-vlinking eyes watching him from every angle and feeding me intel“..... “I had a tactically versed partner watching for buddies and checking routes“...…“I had tow sets of educated eyes looking for weapons” ...
“ I had a solid plan for what I'd do given any of a half-dozen "triggers" he could pull. Had this been in Vegas, I'd have bet the mortgage I was moments away from a serious fight.…”
Bwahahahaha sounds like I'm reading a Rouge warrior book, not a day in the life of a loss specialist at the mall.
I love how you spout Bullshit like...."The possibility was very real that I'd be forced to (GASP!!) use MMA type tactics in a real fight against an armed bad guy."
Yet you listed these as your plan...
"use thrown weapons like the sign and my clipboard to get close, move low and behind the thick steel and glass cases, and when you get close, hit something vital with a sharp pointy object many, many times - or, drag him into the various barriers, get control of that right hand, choke him out and cuff him) came together flawlessly."
Steel cases, hitting vital points with anything, much less with sharp pointy objects...dragging him into barriers...exactly which of these were MMA tactics? Oh yeah not a damn one...but after doing that you planned to choke and cuff him...guess what, only the choke is MMA...so really one MMA technique was an option of many and was also the last and least viable of all your genius ideas that day...like I said in the beginning this was a story better suited to impress Waitresses at Dennys than show how effective you or MMA are for security or SD.
post 28
"You know, Bore, next year, I'm just going to break down and send you that hooked on phinics program I've been meaning to buy you. You have such a gift for selective reading it's truly an impressive thing to behold! I said I'd have stabbed the guy in the eyeball with a pen if I saw any evidence that he was packing a gun. Are you not the big advocate here of being prepared to go all the way?"
Sure I am when it's necessary, and realistic, neither was the case in your fantasy.
post 62
"there were two people behind the counter that night - one helping another customer on the far side of a large safe and the other dealing with the subject himself. There were 26 other cameras watching the rest of the store, and trained persons watching them."
26 cameras on the rest of the store...and trained persons..
hmm isn't persons plural? But it was all up to Rambo, that’s why you were planning on stabbing him in the eye with your pen AFTER he started shooting remember?
post 70
"Assuming you were in a store at a jewelry counter that had been held up at gunpoint for $76,000, and assuming you spotted someone asking suspicious questions, looking drugged, making those you were entrusted to protect visibly frightened and uncomfortable, and assuming you were the only person designated to handle it"
Funny You wanted ME to deal with it alone (and imply you were) but according to YOUR own count YOU had these assets...."I had ten sets of non-vlinking eyes watching him from every angle and feeding me intel..... I had a tactically versed partner watching for buddies and checking routes......I had tow (sp) sets of educated eyes looking for weapons " and ANOTHER " 26 sets of cameras and trained persons watching them"
post 75
BoarSpear has droned for over a year now about his love of blades and his obsession with assuming everyone you'll ever fight will be armed, but he has serious ethical problems with me even thinking about stabbing a gun wielding robber with a pen?
I have ethical problems with an unarmed guard without a clue what he is doing trying to stab an armed robber when there were PLENTY of better options (and ORDERS to the contrary)... BTW it isn't just ethical questions, I'm questioning WAY more than your ethics.
IF and WHEN you stop deriding and chiding my posts...and actually step back realize you ain't right every time you post I'll be happy to explain the problems I saw in your "After action report" However I WONT have time to do THAT properly until AFTER the seminar. THEN I'd LOVE to take every post you made on the subject and discuss each and every one as though it WAS an after action report...No BS...no attitude...and NO TROLLS...You agree to a PROFESSIONAL discussion of your "After Action Report" As though you turned it in for critique instead of praise and I'd be more than happy to "contribute" As well as explain EXACTLY why I busted your balls so hard for your posts about it in the first place...but I wont be trapped into answering 50 thousand trolls so when I can't answer all of them you can claim some kind of victory.
Deal? or can I just expect Jubaji to troll and you to attack me again? Or are you Man and Moderator enough to step up and keep the trolls out of the thread and honestly discuss your "report."
You are after all a SUPER Moderator and supposed EXPERT and many kids look up to you on here as a role model. So YOUR examples will be followed...you really don't wanna save me the trouble and remove the testosterone flavored BS from your post yourself? We BOTH know most of that post was a slam at ME and your USING MMA on the job ...but ya didn't and you didn't even use clear judgment of your options either...at least the way you told it. I didn't hit you any harder than anyone else who read that as an after action report, of a supposed Martial arts forum Moderator and MMA trainer and Vunak Student...it read like a mall cop, thinking like a mall cop...NOT a pro, moonlighting as a Loss Specialist...think about it....then get back to me...
Of course he chose to close the thread...Curious why? Because he was afraid I would post this...
I'll just quote you and the post number since you closed the thread rather than keep out trolls and discuss it like a man.
Post 1
In post 1 we learn the is an unknown subject you want to check out at the jewelry counter ..." I could tell even on camera that he was making the ladies behind the counter nervous. So I headed up to their location, and my partner stayed behind to keep the whole thing on as many cameras as we could. He checked form the camera's eye view for any visible weapons, and I scanned as I walked to see if he had lookouts with him. I couldn't identify any, but I still planned out my routes for engaging, disengaging, and giving chase if it came to that while still allowing for cover and concealment if he turned out to be armed. As I got close, I could smell booze, and I noticed a big bulge in his jacket pocket. I waved off the jewelry counter ladies to keep them from acknowledging me, and I circled to get a better look at his pocket. It was a rear-facing slash pocket, so I could see inside. It looked like he just had a wad of napkins nad random papers, but those can easily conceal a weapon, so I moved closer with care. His left hand was visible, and because its position dragged his jacket up, I could see his waistband on that side. All clear. SO I determined I'd need to be more careful of his right, since it was the one with the bulge, and since it was still an unknown."
Here we establish you have no idea if he is armed or even a threat, there are multiple ladies behind the counter and you have cameras and a partner to back you up.
"He hadn't broken any laws yet, so I couldn't legally take any action. However, I believe in stop-hitting, so when I walked up to the jewelry counter, I made sure my radio and handcuffs were in plain sight. I also kept the counter in between us and gave myself at least three offensive capabilities if things started to go bad. I had a pen in my hand (a favorite weapon because of its innocuous nature), my handcuffs (excellent brass knuckles, if the situation dictates), and a convenient "30% Off Sale" sign on the counter that could act as both a bludgeon and a shield. My presence made him very nervous, and he immediately offered to allow me the chance to talk with the jewelry ladies while he "thought about his purchase some more." He walked in figure 8's around me, with my partner relaying his position via a numbering system we have worked out for literally every part of the store. I knew where he was all the time, and I knew what he was doing with his hands. My partner told me he had attempted to approach the counter again four times, but quickly changed direction when he saw I was still there. He finally left through an exterior door to the parking lot. I waited for a few minutes and then headed down to see what kind of car he was driving, and he was coming back in the store. I made up a radio call (prearranged for just such cases) and headed back up with a fake report of a workman's comp claim to maintain a presence at the counter again. Again, he looked nervous and suspicious, visibly sweating under his far-too-heavy coat. We scanned again, since he had a new and out of sight opportunity to acquire weapons, and came up with the same results. If he was going to do something, it would be me against him, and we'd both be armed in some manner or another. The difference between us was that I was limited as to what I could do and he was not. I made up my mind that I'd stay ready to stab him right through the eyeball with that trusty pen if I had to, but that I'd try to take him down and put him in cuffs without life-changing violence if it was at all possible."
And here the amateur behavior begins...You don’t know if he is armed or not... so you make sure he sees your Radio and handcuffs...and you put the counter between you and him so you could attack with either your pen, your handcuffs or throw the sign at him. And again, you scan the room to look for more weapons and decide yep, You've made the right choices... stabbing him in the eye is your plan of action if things get ugly...and you're going to throw the sign for distraction. And, we see that if he doesn't do anything violent you plan on arresting him without violence.
So far what I get is you put a barrier between you and the unknown threat planning to stab him in the eye with the pen, but you weren't going to stab him in the eye unless he started shooting witnesses...you said he could pull it and demand merchandise but you wouldn’t stab him in the eye until after he started shooting...
Post 31 you state how as a professional you have prepared for this situation and are ready to implement these options.
"If it was a matter of merchandise, of course the guy would have walked away clean. But I was not, am not, and will not get caught in the headlights because I simply expect him to be satisfied with merchandise. See, what I developed was what we professionals like to call a "plan." A "plan" allows us to prepare for the eventualities of a situation. For example -
Option A - the guy pulls a gun and demands the jewelry. We hand it over, and he goes away. Merchandise replaceable, injuries = 0.
Option B - the guy pulls a gun and demands the jewelry. He then decides it might be a good idea to shoot the witnesses, so he gets a pen in the eyeball and a righteous ass-whupping from someone who was not content to stand idly by and get shot for lack of fighting back.
Option C - the guy demands the jewelry but does not have a weapon. I take him down with a minimum of force and arrest him per local laws and store policy.
Option D - the guy buys a nice bracelet for his wife and goes home without incident."
This is what REALLY proved to me you have no understanding of the dynamics of a life and death struggle outside the Rambo fantasies in your head... YOU will be the first person he shoots because you already showed him your cuffs and radio, HE KNOWS YOU ARE SECURITY!! So YOU die on the first shot...hard to fight back now huh? (god forbid the robber not be stupid and take 3 steps back before drawing his weapon) Not that it would have mattered from behind a barrier (the counter you put between you for "safety") when your chosen weapon was an ink pen. And now you see why I called it a Rambo fantasy...because that's what you were doing, fantasizing about shit that wasn’t even possible due to your own actions!! You got behind a barrier that prevented you from closing the distance needed to deploy your weapon!! An amateur move that shows NO understanding what you are doing, especially since your weapon of choice demanded you wait until he was shooting before you could use it as did your plan according to your own post... Further the thought with how you were going to throw the sign and clipboard at him to distract him from shooting you while you either jump over or run around the counter to get close enough to stab him in the eye with the ink pen you so wisely chose...all the while he is shooting at you...notice due to throwing the sign and clipboard you don’t even have a free hand to attempt to deflect his weapon hand while you try to stab him in the eye with your pen while he is moving and shooting you...Seeing the Rambo fantasy unravel yet?
Now before you start whining about me picking on you...IF you had used Verbal judo like I suggested to make him think Sheriff deputies were in the store, then instead of showing him your radio and cuffs (thus "telling" him you're trying to intimidate him...wanna bet he noticed the lack of any weapon and was made more confident?) You could have stayed close enough to use the clip board EDGE to attack his weapon arm/hand as he tried to deploy the weapon, this could be "bounced" under his chin/nose to down him after stopping and controlling the draw and wouldn’t require you to wait until he started shooting as in your so called plan. No need for trying a low percentage move like stabbing him in the eye with your pen from behind a counter...AFTER he starts shooting!!! You didn’t have to resort to half assed Rambo fantasies that would have gotten you fired at minimum and probably killed along with all the other witnesses either, but you did...MMA mindset obviously didn’t prepare you for security work or SD when that’s the thought process you got from training it.
All this testosterone flavored Bullshit REALLY stands out now doesn’t it? " I was well prepared" ..... “I had ten sets of non-vlinking eyes watching him from every angle and feeding me intel“..... “I had a tactically versed partner watching for buddies and checking routes“...…“I had tow sets of educated eyes looking for weapons” ...
“ I had a solid plan for what I'd do given any of a half-dozen "triggers" he could pull. Had this been in Vegas, I'd have bet the mortgage I was moments away from a serious fight.…”
Bwahahahaha sounds like I'm reading a Rouge warrior book, not a day in the life of a loss specialist at the mall.
I love how you spout Bullshit like...."The possibility was very real that I'd be forced to (GASP!!) use MMA type tactics in a real fight against an armed bad guy."
Yet you listed these as your plan...
"use thrown weapons like the sign and my clipboard to get close, move low and behind the thick steel and glass cases, and when you get close, hit something vital with a sharp pointy object many, many times - or, drag him into the various barriers, get control of that right hand, choke him out and cuff him) came together flawlessly."
Steel cases, hitting vital points with anything, much less with sharp pointy objects...dragging him into barriers...exactly which of these were MMA tactics? Oh yeah not a damn one...but after doing that you planned to choke and cuff him...guess what, only the choke is MMA...so really one MMA technique was an option of many and was also the last and least viable of all your genius ideas that day...like I said in the beginning this was a story better suited to impress Waitresses at Dennys than show how effective you or MMA are for security or SD.
post 28
"You know, Bore, next year, I'm just going to break down and send you that hooked on phinics program I've been meaning to buy you. You have such a gift for selective reading it's truly an impressive thing to behold! I said I'd have stabbed the guy in the eyeball with a pen if I saw any evidence that he was packing a gun. Are you not the big advocate here of being prepared to go all the way?"
Sure I am when it's necessary, and realistic, neither was the case in your fantasy.
post 62
"there were two people behind the counter that night - one helping another customer on the far side of a large safe and the other dealing with the subject himself. There were 26 other cameras watching the rest of the store, and trained persons watching them."
26 cameras on the rest of the store...and trained persons..
hmm isn't persons plural? But it was all up to Rambo, that’s why you were planning on stabbing him in the eye with your pen AFTER he started shooting remember?
post 70
"Assuming you were in a store at a jewelry counter that had been held up at gunpoint for $76,000, and assuming you spotted someone asking suspicious questions, looking drugged, making those you were entrusted to protect visibly frightened and uncomfortable, and assuming you were the only person designated to handle it"
Funny You wanted ME to deal with it alone (and imply you were) but according to YOUR own count YOU had these assets...."I had ten sets of non-vlinking eyes watching him from every angle and feeding me intel..... I had a tactically versed partner watching for buddies and checking routes......I had tow (sp) sets of educated eyes looking for weapons " and ANOTHER " 26 sets of cameras and trained persons watching them"
post 75
BoarSpear has droned for over a year now about his love of blades and his obsession with assuming everyone you'll ever fight will be armed, but he has serious ethical problems with me even thinking about stabbing a gun wielding robber with a pen?
I have ethical problems with an unarmed guard without a clue what he is doing trying to stab an armed robber when there were PLENTY of better options (and ORDERS to the contrary)... BTW it isn't just ethical questions, I'm questioning WAY more than your ethics.
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