Why I don't practice kung fu anymore

[jmd161]

Perhaps the removal of forms could be the evolution of kungfu that focuses more on application? I know in Judo the Katas are rarely taught anymore and if they are it is simply for traditional belt promotions.

The problem is not the forms!


The problem is in the structure of the schools where the forms are used not as training guides, but more as a tool to money. It's like the deal with belt rankings, it gives you a tool to be able to collect more money to help you benefit off teaching and having your own business.

Many sifu start off with good intentions, but find out good intentions lead to bankruptcy.

Most people who teach kung fu sadly don't do so for the love or tradition of the art, but to try and make money. Which, is why my sifu refuses to open another public school. He doesn't need the money, but he doesn't need the headache associated with running a public martial arts school either.

jeff

[JadeDragon]

The problem is that teachers don't make the student use the techniques they learn in the forms when they sparr in class. That is why most martial artist sparr like kickboxers.

[jmd161]

The problem is that teachers don't make the student use the techniques they learn in the forms when they sparr in class. That is why most martial artist sparr like kickboxers.

This is not aimed at you so please don't take it as an attack.



The problem lies in that many of the teachers themselves don't know the actual uses of the techniques. So they result to teaching a sloppy kick boxing type sparring. That is why I say it's better to actually learn kick boxing from a trained coach, than half arse kick boxing from a CMA sifu!

You can't teach what you don't know... You can't teach what you've never attempted to use yourself in an actual fight. You can't teach someone to fight, if you haven't fought yourself!


jeff

[pstevens]

This is not aimed at you so please don't take it as an attack.



The problem lies in that many of the teachers themselves don't know the actual uses of the techniques. So they result to teaching a sloppy kick boxing type sparring. That is why I say it's better to actually learn kick boxing from a trained coach, than half arse kick boxing from a CMA sifu!

You can't teach what you don't know... You can't teach what you've never attempted to use yourself in an actual fight. You can't teach someone to fight, if you haven't fought yourself!


jeff

Actually, this is my point in regards to the other posts about kung-fu not being a viable self-defense tool. While doing their forms, kung-fu guys look graceful and competent; but when faced with real combat implications, they flail their arms and at best look like kickboxers.

The truth is partly what JadeDragon pointed out. Masters can't teach students how to use the traditional forms for real combat; because even the students understand this simple fact: IT DOESN'T WORK! The stances and traditional movements don't lend themselves to real combat applications. Therefore, the students shy away from them and use the techniques that do work like kickboxing techniques. I've seen the same thing happen in styles of karate that were very traditional. The master would insist on using deep stances and traditional blocks in sparring, but students would revert to what does work; a balanced stance with jabs, crosses, uppercuts and quick roundhouse kicks, etc...

[Ben Grimm]

Application and form aren't always so obvious, but regardless of what style you do, you need to test it under pressure.

[jmd161]

Actually, this is my point in regards to the other posts about kung-fu not being a viable self-defense tool. While doing their forms, kung-fu guys look graceful and competent; but when faced with real combat implications, they flail their arms and at best look like kickboxers.

The two actually have nothing to do with each other. The reason so many kung fu guys forms look good and their fighting sux, is because they invest all their time in their forms and no time is spent on application. So they result to poor kick boxing because they only know a few punches and kicks. It takes a real dedicated individual with amazing skill to be good at both. It's much harder to be a fighter than a good forms person. Most kung fu stylist believe they will somehow become a good fighter, if they learn a lot of forms...yet they never take the time to practice applications.

The truth is partly what JadeDragon pointed out. Masters can't teach students how to use the traditional forms for real combat; because even the students understand this simple fact: IT DOESN'T WORK! The stances and traditional movements don't lend themselves to real combat applications. Therefore, the students shy away from them and use the techniques that do work like kickboxing techniques. I've seen the same thing happen in styles of karate that were very traditional. The master would insist on using deep stances and traditional blocks in sparring, but students would revert to what does work; a balanced stance with jabs, crosses, uppercuts and quick roundhouse kicks, etc...

I don't know why people feel forms are for combat?!?!

Forms were meant to only be a guide and a way to easily remember a set of techniques. There were no video cameras and pictures couldn't show intent or flow, so forms were created to document every technique within a style. As far as stances go stances aren't meant to be used in fighting the same way they are used in training. You would not just stand in a deep horse or cat stance during a fight. You are supposed to transition from stances and when needed for a throw or trip or take down you transition into a horse or arrow or cat stance.


jeff

[pstevens]

The two actually have nothing to do with each other. The reason so many kung fu guys forms look good and their fighting sux, is because they invest all their time in their forms and no time is spent on application. So they result to poor kick boxing because they only know a few punches and kicks. It takes a real dedicated individual with amazing skill to be good at both. It's much harder to be a fighter than a good forms person. Most kung fu stylist believe they will somehow become a good fighter, if they learn a lot of forms...yet they never take the time to practice applications.



I don't know why people feel forms are for combat?!?!

Forms were meant to only be a guide and a way to easily remember a set of techniques. There were no video cameras and pictures couldn't show intent or flow, so forms were created to document every technique within a style. As far as stances go stances aren't meant to be used in fighting the same way they are used in training. You would not just stand in a deep horse or cat stance during a fight. You are supposed to transition from stances and when needed for a throw or trip or take down you transition into a horse or arrow or cat stance.


jeff

As I stated in the other thread. In kung-fu, form is NOT the same as application. But in many styles that are effective, form IS ALSO the application.

[Sagacious Lu]

Perhaps the removal of forms could be the evolution of kungfu that focuses more on application? I know in Judo the Katas are rarely taught anymore and if they are it is simply for traditional belt promotions.

Honestly by the time you were done trying to reform the system I practiced it wouldn't bear any resemblance to what it is now. In any case I wouldn't want to bother personally; why try to make it something it's not when there are plenty of other excellent styles and gyms to choose from.

As I stated in the other thread. In kung-fu, form is NOT the same as application. But in many styles that are effective, form IS ALSO the application.

I agree completely. For the most part the movements in the forms bore little to no relationship to the combat techniques that they were supposed to represent. It wasn't a matter of my teacher not understanding them, the problem is that they're just not effective ways to teach the techniques they're associated with.

You would not just stand in a deep horse or cat stance during a fight. You are supposed to transition from stances and when needed for a throw or trip or take down you transition into a horse or arrow or cat stance.

Are you suggesting that the traditional stances can be used in a fight?

[jmd161]

Honestly by the time you were done trying to reform the system I practiced it wouldn't bear any resemblance to what it is now. In any case I wouldn't want to bother personally; why try to make it something it's not when there are plenty of other excellent styles and gyms to choose from.

Very good point, you'd be wasting your time trying to change your old school. If they were that far removed chances are it was one of two possible reasons.

1.) The school is profitable for the sifu and would not be worth losing It just to appease you.

Or

2.) The style has already lost most of it's combative effectiveness and is too far removed from it's original form to recover.

For the most part the movements in the forms bore little to no relationship to the combat techniques that they were supposed to represent. It wasn't a matter of my teacher not understanding them, the problem is that they're just not effective ways to teach the techniques they're associated with.

There could be several reasons for that. Chances are like many a style the techniques have been tweaked and adjusted to make them look better for demos and tournaments. After a while the adjusted techniques become all that's remembered and just that quick another style has lost it's combat effectiveness. Kung fu has been on a slow downward spiral for many decades, BJJ and MMA just made people notice a lot quicker than they would've otherwise.

Are you suggesting that the traditional stances can be used in a fight?

No! I'm not suggesting that they can be used in a fight...I'm telling you that traditional stances can be used in a fight!


jeff

[Sagacious Lu]

2.) The style has already lost most of it's combative effectiveness and is too far removed from it's original form to recover.

Exactly.

No! I'm not suggesting that they can be used in a fight...I'm telling you that traditional stances can be used in a fight!

I'm afraid you just blew your credibility; you might as well tell me that water isn't wet. Can you post a video of the stances being used against a decent fighter in a real fight?

[jmd161]

I'm afraid you just blew your credibility; you might as well tell me that water isn't wet. Can you post a video of the stances being used against a decent fighter in a real fight?

I really don't care about my "credibility" on a martial art forum. Half the people on forums talking about martial arts are wannabe's that have at the most taken a few classes or spent less than a yr in any martial art.

As for the second part of your post..Are you serious?

Of all the real fights that take place all over the US alone everyday...How many of them are video taped? And you want me to have video of a martial artist using stances in a real fight?

Classic!

jeff

[CrushingFist]

This is so true, I can relate to the topic starter

[cyco]

all i can say is, nearly all fighting styles have adapted over the years to become more succesful in a fight, guess which of the few who havent are?......yep u got it kung fu, one of the oldest styles around has not adapted, not even a little bit, in my mind thats enough to understand that it is not a good stlye to train in if ur gonna go out and defend ur self from 6 foot neo nazis lol, it is good for only one thing, learning to control ur body which is good.... if thats all u wanna do......

[JadeDragon]

all i can say is, nearly all fighting styles have adapted over the years to become more succesful in a fight, guess which of the few who havent are?......yep u got it kung fu, one of the oldest styles around has not adapted, not even a little bit, in my mind thats enough to understand that it is not a good stlye to train in if ur gonna go out and defend ur self from 6 foot neo nazis lol, it is good for only one thing, learning to control ur body which is good.... if thats all u wanna do......

I have to disagree with you on just about all accounts with you BUT lets say I agree that kung fu doesn't teach you how to fight. There are still things kung fu teaches that are valuable. First it teaches the basics that are needed if you were to cross over and train mma. It teaches you kicks, punches, and as you said how to control your body. It also teaches discpline, it teaches how to set goals and how to achieve those goals, and it gives self confidence, and its good exercise.

[JadeDragon]

No! I'm not suggesting that they can be used in a fight...I'm telling you that traditional stances can be used in a fight! jeff

That's ludacris! You would use a front stance/bo stance in a real fight? Or use a horse stance? If you used a front stance in a real fight all you would have to do is sweep that front leg because all your weight is on it and you would fall flat. If you used a horse stance you would be vulnerable to groin attacks. You can still use kung fu techniques with out using traditional stances. Would you use an eagle stance? I hope to God you wouldn't.