Forms vs reality?

[aku aku]

Hello,

This was never made clear to me in my limited exposure to kung fu. When you do kung fu for real, either for sparring or self defense, how closely are your movements expected to match the moves in the forms? The question might seem silly but a lot of the kung fu I was taught seemed kind of choppy and not as quick and flowing as I would expect a fighting art to be, are the forms supposed to show the 'proper' movements that you should strive for or are some of them exaggerated to illustrate certain principles or what?

[Mephariel]

Hello,

This was never made clear to me in my limited exposure to kung fu. When you do kung fu for real, either for sparring or self defense, how closely are your movements expected to match the moves in the forms? The question might seem silly but a lot of the kung fu I was taught seemed kind of choppy and not as quick and flowing as I would expect a fighting art to be, are the forms supposed to show the 'proper' movements that you should strive for or are some of them exaggerated to illustrate certain principles or what?

In self-defense, if you are worrying about your movements matching forms, you are having the wrong mentality. It is true that forms help you develop the proper stamia, strength, and execution of technique. But forms are for you to instinctively unleash that power and techniques; forms are not a strait jacket that you have to follow to the exact pattern when it comes to a real fight. Nor should you be thinking about it. It should come naturally and you should be focusing on attacking or defending yourself in the most effective matter in that situation.

Here is a Shaolin Monk's take on forms:

Forms vs. Fighting
Forms are forms, and fighting is fighting. In a real fight, there are no stances and no routines - just the single goal of knocking out the other person as quickly as possible. In the ring or on the street, your opponent will not oblige you by getting into the position or stance you learned to deal with in class.

That is not to say that forms practice is a waste of time. Forms help you develop your speed, power, harmony and reaction, for those are the attributes that will best serve you in a real fight.

-Shi Yan Ming

[aku aku]

In self-defense, if you are worrying about your movements matching forms, you are having the wrong mentality.

Let me clarify a little.

When a boxer or muay thai person spar, what they do looks a lot like how they train but can the same be said of someone who practices choy li fut or hung gar? If not, what is the intention of the "classical presentation" of the moves you see during forms practice?

[Mephariel]

Let me clarify a little.

When a boxer or muay thai person spar, what they do looks a lot like how they train but can the same be said of someone who practices choy li fut or hung gar? If not, what is the intention of the "classical presentation" of the moves you see during forms practice?

Oh of course. Choy Li Fut have very distintive movements in fighting and forms. I am just saying that if in a fight, you are worrying about stances and forms in the middle of the fight, I think you are having the wrong mentality. Forms helps you to iron out the movements so you can unleash your attacks right. When you fight, you movements should be as smooth as when you do forms. This is similar to how boxers punch bags and Thai fighters kick pads with a straight leg. How you apply the moves should be based on situation, your reaction time, and personal experience. This is where fighting and forms sets differs.

[shaolin-warrior]

I agree, Forms are a great learning tool. They should be used in the following way:The first part of learning a form is the proper execution of movement, centering and finding balance. Then you develop speed with your proper execution and balance, and lastly comes your power.
This third step is were fighting comes to play. your body should at this point be able to punch and kick and block formlessly and properly whether sparring or brawling on the street.

[suhieb]

Forms vs. Fighting
Forms are forms, and fighting is fighting. In a real fight, there are no stances and no routines - just the single goal of knocking out the other person as quickly as possible. In the ring or on the street, your opponent will not oblige you by getting into the position or stance you learned to deal with in class.

That is not to say that forms practice is a waste of time. Forms help you develop your speed, power, harmony and reaction, for those are the attributes that will best serve you in a real fight.

-Shi Yan Ming

This paragraph seems to be a nice summary for this thread, as i belive that it highlights the difference between forms and fighting and how that they are both integrated to train you with the skills that will server you best in a situation

Suhieb

[Red Rum]

Interesting post. I would say that forms are similar to drills. When I do wing chun, I am not going to fight a person the same I do in a drill. The drill is there to help build strength in your legs and building up your movement.

In the forms, I am looking to connect my upper half with my lower half. It is a template for building up my overall structure. In a fight I would hope that my moves resemble something like the forms, but this will not be the case every time.

I use forms to 'chill down' after a good training session and is a good way to practice on your own.

Don't take it as anymore than that my friend

[aku aku]

So forms and fighting do look different?

Sorry to be difficult, I think the point of my question might have been misunderstood.

I'm not thinking of your mentality or how forms are used or what you should be thinking about, I'm just wondering; Do the moves in forms resemble the actual application?

When a kickboxer punches or kicks a heavy bag, it looks a lot like how he uses it in the ring. When a boxer does drills with the focus mitts or shadow boxes, he moves pretty much the same way he would move in the ring. When a kung fu person does the stances, kicks and punches in his forms; does it look similar to sparring and fighting?

I know that there are kung fu systems that make a point of practicing the same way they fight but I get the impression that this isn't universal and I'm wondering what is the reason for possibly doing something one way in a form and doing it a different way in application.

[suhieb]

Well yes and no....

In a situation where you are fighing a person from a different style/art then there may be very little fighting that resembles your forms, however if you are fightins an opponent from the same style then your fight may incoperate a lot more of your forms.

In my opinion

Forms teach you to fight other forms
Drills like kickboxing are for fighting ona more general scale

hope this helps you in some way

Suhieb

[white devil]

In my opinion, you should always train the same way you fight,if not..are you really training?

[Mephariel]

So forms and fighting do look different?

Sorry to be difficult, I think the point of my question might have been misunderstood.

I'm not thinking of your mentality or how forms are used or what you should be thinking about, I'm just wondering; Do the moves in forms resemble the actual application?

When a kickboxer punches or kicks a heavy bag, it looks a lot like how he uses it in the ring. When a boxer does drills with the focus mitts or shadow boxes, he moves pretty much the same way he would move in the ring. When a kung fu person does the stances, kicks and punches in his forms; does it look similar to sparring and fighting?

I know that there are kung fu systems that make a point of practicing the same way they fight but I get the impression that this isn't universal and I'm wondering what is the reason for possibly doing something one way in a form and doing it a different way in application.

You are not doing stuff differently. I don't think you understand what people are saying. When you do a kung fu punch, it should look like a kung fu punch in terms of delivery just like in your forms. When you do a kung fu kick, it should look like the kicks in your forms. But due to the choatic nature of fights, your punches won't match up perfectly with what you do in fights. It is that simple. The limiting factor of forms is that it is assuming you can perform all the forms all the time. It might not be that way.

[aku aku]

You are not doing stuff differently. I don't think you understand what people are saying. When you do a kung fu punch, it should look like a kung fu punch in terms of delivery just like in your forms. When you do a kung fu kick, it should look like the kicks in your forms. But due to the choatic nature of fights, your punches won't match up perfectly with what you do in fights. It is that simple. The limiting factor of forms is that it is assuming you can perform all the forms all the time. It might not be that way.

So the forms represent the ideal which you may or may not achieve?

I had a video on full contact choy li fut and it didn't look at all like the choy li fut I was exposed to, it looked more like funny muay thai.

I do know that sometimes certain moves are exaggerated to help the learning process. I talked to a karate guy before who showed me a basic block and explained that they practice it that way but in sparring they would use a shorter, quicker version of it. I can respect that but it seems to me that, at some point, you need to start practicing the shorter quicker version if you really want to be able to use it.

[white devil]

It doesnt really make sense...its like a tennis player who trains to be the best at tennis by fixing bikes.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Ive never really understood why chinese martial artist do those forms.

Kata or shadow boxing is one thing, but some of those Taichi forms are just pointless as hell i think. Sure, it probably builds you body up well but so do alot of other excersizes.

[medic06]

It doesnt really make sense...its like a tennis player who trains to be the best at tennis by fixing bikes.

Why do you skip rope and run in boxing????