Forms vs reality?

[Mephariel]

In my opinion, you should always train the same way you fight,if not..are you really training?

I see it like this:

Forms trains you to be precise in your deliveries of each individual moves. Forms are like the formulas that you memorized before a math exam. Forms also trains your strength, stamia, and other physical aspects of your body.

Sparring/fighting trains you to use those formulas and apply them in a particular situation. Sparring is your math exam.

If you only know forms, then you are useless because will only know each formula without knowing how to apply them.

If you only fight without training foundations, then you will be applying those equations without much purpose and confidence.

[Mephariel]

It doesnt really make sense...its like a tennis player who trains to be the best at tennis by fixing bikes.

Why do Boxers run on the field and punch bags? Same reason. Why do Muay Thai fighters kick pads with a straight leg over and over again? Same reason. Think about when you first watch a boxer fight as a kid and you are trying to mimic the boxer's combinations. Left jab jab jab jab, Right Hook! When you do it, how do you feel? You feel no power, and you are probably slow and uncomfortable. Forms is just a way to perform all your moves over and over again so you can gain fluidity and power.

Just like a Boxer can't fight by just punching bags, a kung fu fighter cannot fight by doing forms. But both the kung fu fighter and the boxer need to train their foundations so when they do apply the moves to a real fight, they feel fluid and have maximum power.

[suhieb]

Ive never really understood why chinese martial artist do those forms.

Kata or shadow boxing is one thing, but some of those Taichi forms are just pointless as hell i think. Sure, it probably builds you body up well but so do alot of other excersizes.

FORMS ARE THE EQUILIVLANT OF KATA'S !!!!

Tai Chi is not an art that is designed to fight or be used in combat more to focus and allow your Chi to flow but it just has combat applications that give you "ideas" of what to do in a situation.

Suhieb

[aku aku]

I see it like this:

Forms trains you to be precise in your deliveries of each individual moves. Forms are like the formulas that you memorized before a math exam. Forms also trains your strength, stamia, and other physical aspects of your body.

But why don't the moves in the forms mimic the actual application of the techniques? I've heard it said that when you do it for real you would use a higher stance or shorten the technique or hold your hand in guard position instead of chambering it on your hip, or grab the opponant's weapon instead of holding your hand in crane beak position, etc. Why aren't all those things done in the forms as well? Why is the "classical presentation" different from the application?

[Mephariel]

But why don't the moves in the forms mimic the actual application of the techniques? I've heard it said that when you do it for real you would use a higher stance or shorten the technique or hold your hand in guard position instead of chambering it on your hip, or grab the opponant's weapon instead of holding your hand in crane beak position, etc. Why aren't all those things done in the forms as well? Why is the "classical presentation" different from the application?

Stances: When you say you say fighters uses a higher stance in real life, I assume you mean in general when they are fighting (moving around). In that case, that just depends on the individual. Chuck Liddell has a different footwork than most boxers. Different boxers have different footwork, etc. If you are anticipating the shoot, you might get lower or hunch forward. Whether or not you use a higher or a lower stance is just preference. Lower stances might give you more power, but less mobility. It just depends on the master and the individual and the situation. In many kung fu systems, you always train in low stances in their theory, that gives you the most power (and most pain and discipline). If you can do the lowest stance, you have the stamia to do the higher stances, etc. It also depends on the art. If you look at pictures of masters that fought Thai fighters for the first time in China, those masters uses low stances. Bajiquan partitioners prefers a higher stance for shoulder work. That is precisely why you have to spar. When you do it for real, you adjust your game according to you and your opponent. Forms gives you the tools, the energy, and the concepts. You have to pick and choose which one to use with.

As for grabbing for the weapon instead of using crane break positions, I am not sure. Praying Mantis partitioners drilled using Mantis hand formations. And animal style masters like Dennis Brown in the US trains people to hold their hands in various animal positions as well. I am guessing that with a weapon, you might want to grapple it away instead of striking the guy because strikes with a fist is no match for strikes with a knife.

So to answer your first question: Why can't forms mimic the application of the technique? I think it is because they aimed for a different purpose. Forms teaches foundations. Application knowledge teaches how to use that foundation.

Think about basketball.

You start out doing drills. Running up a down the court, dribbling at a certain level. You might do 1000 shots a day. You might do it at a certain speed. You might spread your hands for defense. However, in a real game, you might not always dribble as low or high as your training coach tells you. You might not always shoot at perfect form because you have to adjust your shot. You might gamble a lot more on defense because your opponent is slow.

That is forms vs. fighting.

[white devil]

Why do Boxers run on the field and punch bags? Same reason. Why do Muay Thai fighters kick pads with a straight leg over and over again? Same reason. Think about when you first watch a boxer fight as a kid and you are trying to mimic the boxer's combinations. Left jab jab jab jab, Right Hook! When you do it, how do you feel? You feel no power, and you are probably slow and uncomfortable. Forms is just a way to perform all your moves over and over again so you can gain fluidity and power.

Just like a Boxer can't fight by just punching bags, a kung fu fighter cannot fight by doing forms. But both the kung fu fighter and the boxer need to train their foundations so when they do apply the moves to a real fight, they feel fluid and have maximum power.

Why do you skip rope and run in boxing????

ok,first of all running and skipping is not sport specific

Theres a difference you should understand between hitting a bag and shadowboxing, and performing pretty kung fu forms.Shadowboxing,sure it requires the fundamentals to be properly taught..but all the rest is left to your imagination.Forms are exact mimics of what you ''should'' do..if only forms limited themselves to simple executions (like in pad work) there wouldnt be much of a problem...the problem is the exact reproduction of a complex form that is more useless than pretty...plus the fact that it is non adaptable.

Now you tell me you'd rather execute forms because it trains your rythm,stamina and technique...what technique? a 4 year old can mimic a form...4 year old cant shadowbox freely

why spend valuable time learning the dance when you can be conditionning yourself and be evolving so much faster?Don't kid yourself..seriously..i was like you before

[white devil]

oh i have another question.....i know where boxers fight...but where do kung fu fighters fight?....besides in movies set

[aku aku]

why spend valuable time learning the dance when you can be conditionning yourself and be evolving so much faster?Don't kid yourself..seriously..i was like you before

I read an interview with Steve Cotter, a hsing yi stylist and full contact kung fu champ. His comment was that fighters shouldn't spend much time on forms, they should spend most of their time drilling and sparring. If you're not a fighter then you should spend more time on your forms because they contain the principles and concepts of the system.

Someone will probably point out that a fighter needs the principles and concepts of the system too but, if he has a good coach training him, he will probably be given what he needs.

[white devil]

but where does a fighter need to fight besides in the ring? dont tell me in the ''street'' cuz if you feel threathened why dont you just carry a gun?

to me, personnaly, martial arts are a sport first..........

[Mephariel]

ok,first of all running and skipping is not sport specific

Theres a difference you should understand between hitting a bag and shadowboxing, and performing pretty kung fu forms.Shadowboxing,sure it requires the fundamentals to be properly taught..but all the rest is left to your imagination.Forms are exact mimics of what you ''should'' do..if only forms limited themselves to simple executions (like in pad work) there wouldnt be much of a problem...the problem is the exact reproduction of a complex form that is more useless than pretty...plus the fact that it is non adaptable.

Now you tell me you'd rather execute forms because it trains your rythm,stamina and technique...what technique? a 4 year old can mimic a form...4 year old cant shadowbox freely

why spend valuable time learning the dance when you can be conditionning yourself and be evolving so much faster?Don't kid yourself..seriously..i was like you before

I don't understand your arguements at all. Forms requires the fundamentals to be properly taught too. Forms are not the exact mimic of what you should do, forms are the mimic of what a properly executed attack should look like. I think you are still confused. Forms are no different than if a boxing coach teach you how to properly punch. You can punch a hundred different ways, but there is still a proper way to execute a straight punch, or a hook. Think of a science experiment. You can do 1000 different experiment in a thousand different fields, but there is still only one way to use a pipette. There is still only one way to spread bacteria on a plate.

Your second arguement shows me that you are still confused. You said forms are non adaptable. That is true. But it is not supposed to be. Forms is to give you a set of tools that you must learn to execute properly. Why would you adapt your forms when you are not even fighting? Adapt to what? It is like using math formulas without a problem. Look, you can't adapt in a boxing ring if you don't know how to punch in the first place. How can you adapt in a boxing ring if you swing like a girl? You can say, I going to throw a jab and then a hook. Yeah...but you need to learn what a jab is first. If you don't have any foundation, how can you fight at all. Forms, bag punching, etc. gives you the foundation and physical capacity.

Lastly, a 4 year old can mimic form? LMAO. A 4 year old can't even do any stance without crying out in pain, let alone do a set. A four year old can do forms as much they can shadowbox. Not a chance. Sure, they can shadowbox...by punching like a girl and swinging wildly. Sure they can do forms, by having pissed poor machanics, zero power and speed.

but where does a fighter need to fight besides in the ring? dont tell me in the ''street'' cuz if you feel threathened why dont you just carry a gun?

to me, personnaly, martial arts are a sport first..........

Martial arts are systems of self-defense first and foremost. I don't see where you get "sport" from. If martial arts are a sport first and foremost, then wouldn't pretty forms competition be more important than self-defense?

[Mephariel]

I read an interview with Steve Cotter, a hsing yi stylist and full contact kung fu champ. His comment was that fighters shouldn't spend much time on forms, they should spend most of their time drilling and sparring. If you're not a fighter then you should spend more time on your forms because they contain the principles and concepts of the system.

Someone will probably point out that a fighter needs the principles and concepts of the system too but, if he has a good coach training him, he will probably be given what he needs.

Precisely. If you are going to be a sport fighter, you need experience first and foremost. You should start sparring and fighting in a ring environment as soon as you feel comfortable with the art. That doesn't mean forms are useless, it means you should make haste to start knowing your battlefield. Shorten your kung fu training if you have too.

[shaolin-warrior]

I currently study two forms of martial arts, both of them shaolin in origin. One being Kung Fu, and the other being Kempo. The Kung Fu Forms are very complex with a lot of rigorous jumps and kicks and very low stances. Not Exactly conducive to fighting on the mats or on the street. The only up side to that is that my kempo forms are fast and hard and very conducive to fighting any where. The Kung Fu gives me incredible balance and stamina, calves and quads like twisted steel. It is flowery but has a lot of hidden self defense techniques, if taught by someone who can pull them out of the forms and show them to you. The Kempo Forms are just blinding flurries of blocks, punches, kicks and take downs. I've placed well at open tournaments against other styles using a combination of both styles.

[shaolin-warrior]

oh i have another question.....i know where boxers fight...but where do kung fu fighters fight?....besides in movies set

That was funny, you forgot on the internet defending their chosen TMA.

[white devil]

Martial arts are systems of self-defense first and foremost. I don't see where you get "sport" from. If martial arts are a sport first and foremost, then wouldn't pretty forms competition be more important than self-defense

?

i think youre mistaken...martial arts are first a buisness to make money out of people like you by selling showy forms and brainwashing you with hong kong movies.

self-defense? dont make me laugh..for a life of training to protect yourself why dont u just invest in a weapon? They try to make you think you need ma to protect yourself...please...ma is a product...so is a gun....a gun is more effective...and 100% dependable.

I prefer the sport over the ma because you can compete against something real and not just a ''fear'' you have when u pass through the dark alley at night.

Open your eyes..please...admit that martial arts is a buisness and thats kind of what is running it into the ground of our capitalist society...it is a little different in other continents though.


But, if youre talking about martial arts philosophy and as way to liberate your soul and to nurish your brain..then i admire you for being well educated


but other than that you are just a byproduct of ''martial arts''

sorry for my english

[Mephariel]

?

i think youre mistaken...martial arts are first a buisness to make money out of people like you by selling showy forms and brainwashing you with hong kong movies.

self-defense? dont make me laugh..for a life of training to protect yourself why dont u just invest in a weapon? They try to make you think you need ma to protect yourself...please...ma is a product...so is a gun....a gun is more effective...and 100% dependable.

I prefer the sport over the ma because you can compete against something real and not just a ''fear'' you have when u pass through the dark alley at night.

Open your eyes..please...admit that martial arts is a buisness and thats kind of what is running it into the ground of our capitalist society...it is a little different in other continents though.


But, if youre talking about martial arts philosophy and as way to liberate your soul and to nurish your brain..then i admire you for being well educated


but other than that you are just a byproduct of ''martial arts''

sorry for my english

Are you serious? So you are saying that ancient romans never used martial techniques in wars? You are saying Chinese and Japanese never used martials in their armies or bodyguards? History is just showy movies right? I can't believe you said "martial arts are first a buisness to make money." Maybe for a lot of people it is. But martial arts certainly didn't start out that way. As to why people don't own a gun, I don't know why. Maybe because they hate guns? Maybe because they don't feel safe having guns around children? Why does it matter? Maybe they just like MA better?