Forms vs reality?

[suhieb]

............................


Who the hell told you that?

I ment generally that it is not been developed as a fighting style but more of a way to focus chi etc...... however i did not deny that it does have combat applications

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:Tai+Chi&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

[medic06]

I ment generally that it is not been developed as a fighting style but more of a way to focus chi etc...... however i did not deny that it does have combat applications


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&d...ition&ct=title

You got it backwards. . .

[shaolin-warrior]

Forms at the novice levels, and I mean no disrespect by that term, are generally weak in content. So I can see your point of view if you're a colored belt ranking. If you're a first or second degree and your forms or katas haven't become increasingly violent in content, then your missing something. Either your just going Through the movements without any comprehension of what your actually doing, or your instructor isn't teaching you all that there is to learn from your system. What style do you study?

[aku aku]

Forms at the novice levels, and I mean no disrespect by that term, are generally weak in content. So I can see your point of view if you're a colored belt ranking. If you're a first or second degree and your forms or katas haven't become increasingly violent in content, then your missing something. Either your just going Through the movements without any comprehension of what your actually doing, or your instructor isn't teaching you all that there is to learn from your system. What style do you study?

I'm not questioning the level of violence or the amount of material in forms. It's just that forms seem to present stuff in a very formalized and stylized manner. When you see people sparring it's much looser with higher stances, different stances, faster movements, shorter movements, hands held up instead of on hips, etc. I'm just wondering why the difference? Why aren't the forms done closer to the way you would spar or the way the moves would look if you were fighting?

[jubaji]

If you're a first or second degree and your forms or katas haven't become increasingly violent in content, then your missing something.

Violent forms, eh? .................

[shaolin-warrior]

Oxymoron to say the least. Break them down into techniques and the techniques are violent.

[jubaji]

Ah.........................................no.

[Ardith]

Forms are a waste of time. One only becomes a better striker by strengthening bones and punching other people in the face.

Playing with imaginary friends only makes people think you're insane.

[medic06]

Forms are a better use of you time than posting crap

[Uke]

Forms are a better use of you time than posting crap

Ain't that the truth.

[jeff5]

I'll give you all my perspective. (whether you want it or not! P) I'm someone who's gone back and forth on this. For years I didn't do forms as part of the whole JKD/FMA/MMA crowd. Recently I've gotten back into doing them with an art that I've fallen in love with.

Forms can be tricky, because if you don't have a good instructor who understands them, their uses will be very limited.

The brilliance of many forms, or of the people who teach them, is that you can and should be working multiple things within a single movement. Below are some of the values that I've been taught and taken out of forms in my limited experience.

- At a very basic level, you're getting yourself in shape. Some forms are extremely strenuous, and one purpose is to improve you physically.

- At another quite basic level forms teach techniques. The most basic level is exactly what you see in the form.

- At a bit of a deeper level, there are multiple interpretations for single posture or position in a form. The structure may be an entry, a strike, a lock, a throw, etc. The key here is that you start learning to not interpret what your doing literally, but on a more figurative and theory based level.

- At yet another level your learning meta-movements, or core body movements. Meaning that its not just the exact techinque, but the full range of motion and body potential for that specific posture, and how to apply it in combat. The application may not look exactly like the form, but the core principles will be there.

- Another level is that your learning power generation, body mechanics, and principles of movement. Here we move away from the specific techniques in the forms and focus more on HOW the form is performed. You can perform the same form multiple ways depending on what your working on. The beauty of this level is that since the focus is on theories, principles, and mechanics, they can be applied to any movement that you do and aren't limited by a specific techinque.

In the end I think forms are good teaching tools. By doing a specific movement or set of movements your working several different things to make you combat ready instead of working them all seperately. But in saying that, they have to be combined with a good teacher who can show you how to interpret them, partner practice, and sparring. By themselves, forms will not make you a fighter.

I think that the original question was something like when you spar or fight does it look exactly like the form. Of course not. How could it? A form is pre-set, and each and every sparring session, or encounter, you will be in will be completely different. The key is that you've learned important principles, theories, and techinques from the form that you can apply if needed.

[Red Rum]

Forms are a waste of time. One only becomes a better striker by strengthening bones and punching other people in the face.

Playing with imaginary friends only makes people think you're insane.

Just striking? What about defence. A big part of wing chun forms is defining your structure so that you can block bigger guys.

If a person hit a bag for twenty years without being taught anything about shapes or structures, they would be good hitter, but they wouldn't be as good as a person who has trained in martial arts for twenty years.

Forms are just an add on to the martial arts world. It is good to train on your own and with other people

[suhieb]

Just striking? What about defence. A big part of wing chun forms is defining your structure so that you can block bigger guys.

If a person hit a bag for twenty years without being taught anything about shapes or structures, they would be good hitter, but they wouldn't be as good as a person who has trained in martial arts for twenty years.

Forms are just an add on to the martial arts world. It is good to train on your own and with other people

Yeah you pritty much said it all in here

[sunfist]

Aku Aku--my 2 cents worth

In the 50's when I was doing Kempo and Karate, we were taught a form, like the Pinan forms for ex, THEN you had to perfect each of the moves in the form against a partner. To that degree the forms were connected to the sparring, rather than disassociated as they often are today. A second point is that in the dojo we practiced our stances by going lower and lower (and wider) over time to both strengthen and limber the legs. BUT when you started preparing for free fighting, you stood in the posture that was most efficient as well as effective for you. Remember, the forms represent Oriental thought. They did not have boxing (for ex) or if they did it was limited, so they didn't stand so as to be faster on their feet, like a kickboxer today might. This kind of training probably went the way of the dinosaurs but this is one concept of how it "used to be done."
sunfist

[kwai chang pain]

What about people who place 1st in forms competition all the time and can't fight worth a sh*t? Is that a coincidence or is it just a way to "empower" people who suck at fighting??

I used to train with a guy like that and I felt like he was always trying to "correct" my forms....and yet he sucked at fighting.