Forms vs reality?

[jubaji]

Wha???

Remember, the forms represent Oriental thought.

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[Red Rum]

What about people who place 1st in forms competition all the time and can't fight worth a sh*t? Is that a coincidence or is it just a way to "empower" people who suck at fighting??

I used to train with a guy like that and I felt like he was always trying to "correct" my forms....and yet he sucked at fighting.

Remember that people do martial arts for different reasons. I have seen people able to stand on one leg for a great deal of time keeping balance but struggle as fighters. Others can lift great weights using stances, but aren't great fighters. I know that people usually define martial arts through how well someone fights, but you can't really do this. If a boxer faced a muay thai guy and the MT guy just kicked him over and over again, does that make the boxer a bad martial artist?

There are arts like Tai Chi, Qi Gong and Wushu which aren't really fighting arts, but people still include them in the martial art world.

What would annoyt me is if someone claimed that they could take an opponent down because they have done forms for twenty years etc.

As we have said previously - forms are just another part of training. Certain arts may emphasise formwork more. Some arts may emphasise fighting more. Some arts might emphasise fitness more

As long as the person gets something out of it, it's fine

[jubaji]

There are arts like Tai Chi, Qi Gong and Wushu which aren't really fighting arts, but people still include them in the martial art world.

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Not this again....

[polecat63]

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Not this again....

Yep. just doesn't make any sense, does it?

[shaolin-warrior]

Forms taught me to hit with incredible power. Take away the form and the power in my punch is still there. This is because the punch is done with proper form and weight transfer.

[Mephariel]

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Not this again....

Tai Chi is an art.

Qi Gong is NOT an art. Qi Gong is a concept.

Wushu is not an art. Wushu means martial arts. Wushu in modern day sense means performance martial arts. Either way, wushu itself is not an art.

[Mephariel]

What about people who place 1st in forms competition all the time and can't fight worth a sh*t? Is that a coincidence or is it just a way to "empower" people who suck at fighting??

I used to train with a guy like that and I felt like he was always trying to "correct" my forms....and yet he sucked at fighting.

The answer to your question is, neither. It just depends on what the heck you are talking about. Wushu competitions are choreographed dances and demostrations. They are not real martial arts. It is not a way to empower people who suck at fighting, it is simply a sport. The guy you train with sucks because he did forms and nothing else. I am willing to bet that he never been in any constant free sparring training.

[jubaji]

Forms taught me to hit with incredible power.

And video games taught me how to fly a fighter jet!

[Red Rum]

Tai Chi is an art.

Qi Gong is NOT an art. Qi Gong is a concept.

Wushu is not an art. Wushu means martial arts. Wushu in modern day sense means performance martial arts. Either way, wushu itself is not an art.

You have just said that wushu means martial arts!!!
I was talking in the broader sense - I said that these styles/ideas/concepts, are still categorised under the martial arts. If you go to any Yellow Pages Qi Gong is listed under martial arts. If you read Martial Arts Illustrated Qi Gong and wushu are included. I don't care about what they are designed for - many wushu practitioners (Jet Li) claim that they can use it for fighting.

It is like non-contact karate - because there is no contact you could technically call it a performing martial art. Yet it would still fall under the remit of the martial arts world.

It is like the whole Buddhism thing - people argue over whether Buddhism is a philosophy or a religion. Yet most of the time when people talk about 'world religion' it is still included

Hope this clarifies

And as for Jubajii - you have a frustrating habit of writing silly on line answers to posts that don't exactly help. You either write sensible answers, or don't bother posting

[Uke]

And video games taught me how to fly a fighter jet!

Imagine a fluffer like you knowing anything outside of being on your knees .. taking the load of whichever moderator you're blowing at the time to keep from being permanently banned.

That'll be the day.

[jubaji]

And as for Jubajii - you have a frustrating habit of writing silly on line answers to posts that don't exactly help.

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Bite me.

[jubaji]

Imagine a fluffer like you knowing anything outside of being on your knees .. taking the load of whichever moderator you're blowing at the time to keep from being permanently banned.

That'll be the day.

Here we see pUke's repeating skills in action as he tries to drag the same lame joke all over the forum.

We also see his sad frustration over the fact that his life-long dream of being a moderator has never been fulfilled.

[jonbey]

Back to the question at hand, I think that forms have 3 main purposes:

1. To condition the body to perform certain movements, which are unnatural (practice makes perfect)

2. Condition the body alignment, stance etc. for generation of power

3. To act as a means of remembering / training a technique when on your own. Every form I have ever trained has martial applications, and if you do not have a training partner / 24 hour club then forms are the way to train technique - just as shadow boxing and bag work is for boxers.

Styles which only have forms do not make good fighters, but do not put all qigong / tai chi styles / schools in the same category, as many teachers of internal arts do teach the applications, fighting forms and sticking hands, all of which teach you how to fight with it.

Cheers,

Jon.

[jubaji]

Back to the question at hand, I think that forms have 3 main purposes:

1. To condition the body to perform certain movements, which are unnatural (practice makes perfect)

What do you mean by "which are unnatural"?

[jonbey]

Any movement that a human would not naturally do. For some people something as simple as holding a fist requires practice. Many strikes require slightly unnatural position of limbs along centre lines for example.