Wing Chun and Weights Training

[Grixti]

Hi guys,
I have been doing Wing Chun for about 2 months now and am a member of Kamon wing chun (if you guys know it)

I have also been going to the gym doing weights and fitness training, for about a month.

I was just wondering if the weights training would seriously impede my speed and have a negative effect on my kung fu? Or would the added strength improve it? Any information on the effects of wight training whilst studying Kung Fu would be great.

What do you guys think?

[aseepish]

Weight lifting certainly didn't impede Bruce Lee!

Here's an old thread that discussed this very topic. There are some pretty good points raised.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=6743

[Red Rum]

Hi guys,
I have been doing Wing Chun for about 2 months now and am a member of Kamon wing chun (if you guys know it)

I have also been going to the gym doing weights and fitness training, for about a month.

I was just wondering if the weights training would seriously impede my speed and have a negative effect on my kung fu? Or would the added strength improve it? Any information on the effects of wight training whilst studying Kung Fu would be great.

What do you guys think?

Hey Grixti, what Kamon class are you from?

[Grixti]

Hey Grixti, what Kamon class are you from?

I train with Roy Fretwell at the Richmond branch in London. I really enjoy the training and by what i have seen so far, Wing Chun looks like a very seriouse and effective martial art.

Do you train at Kamon?

Any thoughts on this subject?

[Red Rum]

I am an instructor in Kamon and have been teaching for around 4 years

Sihing Roy is one of the most experienced wing chunners I have seen - he has answered any question I have thrown at him. And he has a lot of stamina when we go out clubbing!!!

You are very lucky to have him as a teacher.

[Grixti]

I did mention to him that i joined the gym and asked if theres any particular muscles groups i should work. He just said all over, really.

But i thought i would post this question on a forum to get a number of opinions on the matter. From what i have learned by speaking to instructers (In the Gym and in martial arts) and also reading posts in a forum like this is that everyone has different views, and most seem equally as convinced in thier views.

So some more input on the subject would be great. I read in that Muay Thai post that "modified olympic lifting techniques" would be effective. What would they be? It sounds like something my Gym instructor would be able to work into my routine.

[Red Rum]

Sihing Roy is right as he was speaking as a wing chunner. Wing chun uses a whole different set of muscle groups (its why even the fittest guys come in and struggle sitting in a basic stance) which are difficult to train down a gym.

A good machine that I use is the leg pusher (don't know its real name). Its the one you basically sit in and push out using your legs.

This is very good for developing base and helping your stamp kicks.

For upper body I train squats with a bar on my shoulders (with small weights on). Again it develops base and also shoulders.

I don't do much gym work as I have always been a big guy (I used to work at a garden centre carrying compost).

Fighting your own bodyweight (pressups, situps, etc) is something that does help you in any martial art.

[DickHardman]

DO NOT LIFT WEIGHTS!!!

get the hell away from the gym. why would you ever consider lifting weights???
why would you want to make yourself bigger, stronger, and have higher endurance??? why would you ever want to grow extra muscles that would protect your body more help you be fit, strong and healthy? you dont want denser stronger bones either do you??yeah man, all that would really impede you as a martial artist.

not only that, but you will get so big so fast(almost overnight after 1 session) that you wont even be able to scratch the back of your neck cause you will get so big and bulky.

[Tom Yum]

Get your fundamentals down first and a base level of conditioning. Once you know what you're doing in that art (6 weeks to 1 year -- depending on the time invested and scope of art) add weight training.

[Red Rum]

...Nopes.

The leg machine won't help you stand in those wing chun stances...the muscle groups that get cooked the most by that are the hip adductors and the hip abductors...essentially the outside and inside of your thighs...
there are special machines for these, such as some of the products produced by Hammer Strength equipment. Still...holding the stances for a prolonged period of time is different from doing explosive reps...it's more muscular endurance than musclar strength.
THE BEST WAY to build the strength to sit for extended periods of time in those stances, is quite simply to sit in those stances for extended periods of time. If you get bored, mix it up with wall sits.
Olympic and 3/4 squats could probably work much better than the leg press for lower body strength anyway.


...which is another point...SQUATS are for legs and core...NOT upper body.

Sorry, I wasn't too specific about the squats - I am stretching out the bar across my shoulders and arms so it is developing both legs and shoulders

The wing chun stance (at least the way Kamon does it) come from the thighs and hips. Again I wasn't that specific - I was talking about Bil ma stance as well as the basic stance

But I think you know more about gym work than I do Garland

[Grixti]

DO NOT LIFT WEIGHTS!!!

get the hell away from the gym. why would you ever consider lifting weights???
why would you want to make yourself bigger, stronger, and have higher endurance??? why would you ever want to grow extra muscles that would protect your body more help you be fit, strong and healthy? you dont want denser stronger bones either do you??yeah man, all that would really impede you as a martial artist.

not only that, but you will get so big so fast(almost overnight after 1 session) that you wont even be able to scratch the back of your neck cause you will get so big and bulky.

Ok...... Thanks for that..... i think??

[SmallThought]

Do not fight force with force.....

One of the first principles we learn in Wing Chun to, as above, "do not fight force with force". Growing up, i copied my brother and father and trained a lot in the gym. I had plenty of muscular power and it helped when i was a cyclist. I guess it even helped when i was faced with multiple attackers before i started training Wing Chun.

However; after i started training Wing Chun as a fultime student, my Sigung suggested that i stop training with weights as it was re-enforcing the tendancy to fight force with force..... a habbit that we can all practice with out any instruction. Instead, it was suggested that i practice my forms (particularly the Shil Lim Tao) as often and for as long as possible. These forms were developed to specifically train the required musculature involved in correctly performing Wing Chun.

As a personal trainer, i still used weights occassionally as i had to demonstrate technique to clients, etc; althought i kept that to a minimum and concentrated my own training on Wing Chun specific practices. Personally, the best non-martial cross training i found for strength, endurance and energy conservation was rock climbing.

Good luck with your training.

Peace out!

[DickHardman]

sorry, but i disagree with you. i dont see how weight lifting can be bad for you. the stuff about weight lifting giving you a tendency to want to fight force with force is all in your head inmop. it can only make you more efficient physically. if your muscles are stronger they will be able to move faster.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

lifting weights makes you faster just as long as you stretch. High reps with low weight give you muscular endurance. High weight with low reps gives you much more strength.

Doing excersizes with only your bodyweight like pushups, pull ups, sit ups, etc... are not enough, using freeweights for squats, dead lifts, lateral raises, etc are crucial.

[SmallThought]

Fair enough....

There is a great joke about martial arts.... in fact, it's the only martial arts joke i know. It goes a little something like this:

Q: How many martial artists does it take to change a light bulb???
A: 12; 1 to change the light bulb and 11 to stand around saying, "We'd do that differently in my school!!!"

My point being that i don't know what principles they teach at your Wing Chun school, but i was taught that apart from the obvious benefits of physical fitness, "strength" plays little to no part in the effective application of Wing Chun. If it did, how could a frail, homeless, under-nourished opium addict like Yip Man defeat a much younger, larger and stronger practitioner of White Eyebrow at the Hong Kong Restaurant Workers Union?

Fighting force with force is not just "in the mind", it is a physical habbit to which we have all been conditioned all our lives. One that we must train in earnest to break if we are to become truely effective practitioners of Wing Chun Kung Fu.

If you have already broken the habbit of fighting force with force and can already move like air around your opponent's oncoming force whilst counter striking with the full force of your entire body weight in rapid succession; by all means, continue training with weights; they do have many benefits. High reps, low weights can indeed build endurance, but only to defined limits and in very specific muscle groups. Lesson one in training to be a fitness leader (personal trainer) is that fitness is specific. That is: what you train will make you fit for that activity. No matter how fit an olympic marathon runner is, put him in the Tour de France and he wont make it through day one; and the same is true in reverse. You can (and should) train for general fitness and conditioning, but you don't need weights to do this! Building external muscle strength is less important than learning to harness the inherent/internal strength you have been naturally granted. Some of us call this Chi.

To say certain weight excersises are "crucial" is all well and good, but to what exactly are they crucial??? It certainly is not true that they are crucial to the execution or training of Wing Chun Kung Fu. Perhaps they are crucial to cutting a fine figure whilst practicing Wing Chun. Have a close look at any photos you can find of Yip Man; do you think he ever trained with weights? Are you questioning his ability as a Wing Chun man?

In my humble, yet considered opinion; it is always best to train exactly what you are training for. I can not tell you what is best for you, i can only share what my Sigung told me in order to benefit my training as a full time student. After all, i never knew Yip Man, but Sigung did.

Peace out!
Have fun with your training.