BajiQuan

[Baji87]

My name's Eric, I'm 21, from America, and I live and work in China, in Shandong Province. I'll be here a while.

Now, I wish I could ask the locals, but at the moment my Chinese is extremely poor, and the ones I do manage to communicate with know nothing or next to it. Something I keep hearing is that Bajiquan is practised by very few people. And those that DO know, well, even if their conversational English is good, there knowledge of Wushu is not usually wholly and completely transferable. And yes, I am working on improving my Chinese as well.

I have been looking for a Martial Art that was right for me, and I am pretty much convinced with what I've seen and read. Of course experience and time will be the only true tell, but before I decide who to learn from, I have to (want to) understand what my options are...something I am currently mixed up with.

I've read ALL the pages I could (yes, i've read bajimen...), but all the information is very generalized and I am looking for a bit of detail and history.

I understand that Bajiquan is an Art Form, and in that Art Form there are different styles and families. I've heard of the Wu, Huo, and Liu families (and many listed on Bajimen with no actual details about the different styles).

I really want to know, if anyone does:

1) What are all the different styles/families/branches/etc of Bajiquan existing in and outside of China today?

2) Where are they from and where are they mostly practised today?

3) What similarities do they share and what makes them different?

4) What are the most traditional of these styles? And what's your definition of traditional?

5) The Forms: It's my understanding that there are 20 (?) standard forms that are shared by all branches of Bajiquan...is this accurate? If so, what are they all?

Also, I've heard people from the Liu family style say in their history of Baji that Wu Zhong had no descendants, and yet I've also heard many others say the the man by the name of Wu Lian Zhi in Mencun, Hebei (Baji's birthplace, apparently) who is the head of the Wu Family Style, is Wu Zhong lineage (in fact i've even seen a provided family tree of it)...Does anyone know for sure?

I hope that any of you might be able to assist my curiosity...I know I ask a lot...and I'm sure I'll have more questions, too...but I thought that the Martial Arts Forums would be the best place for this post.

Thanks,

Eric

[BoarSpear]

My name's Eric, I'm 21, from America, and I live and work in China, in Shandong Province. I'll be here a while.

Welcome aboard.

Now, I wish I could ask the locals, but at the moment my Chinese is extremely poor, and the ones I do manage to communicate with know nothing or next to it. Something I keep hearing is that Bajiquan is practised by very few people. And those that DO know, well, even if their conversational English is good, there knowledge of Wushu is not usually wholly and completely transferable.

Sounds like you're going to need to concentrate on learning the language and culture of the people you hope to learn from. If you can't communicate enough to find a teacher you certainly won't be able to communicate well enough to learn an art that relies on oral instruction.

I have been looking for a Martial Art that was right for me, and I am pretty much convinced with what I've seen and read. Of course experience and time will be the only true tell, but before I decide who to learn from, I have to (want to) understand what my options are...something I am currently mixed up with.

I've read ALL the pages I could (yes, i've read bajimen...), but all the information is very generalized and I am looking for a bit of detail and history.

I understand that Bajiquan is an Art Form, and in that Art Form there are different styles and families. I've heard of the Wu, Huo, and Liu families (and many listed on Bajimen with no actual details about the different styles).

I really want to know, if anyone does:

No two lineages or styles will tell the same story.

1) What are all the different styles/families/branches/etc of Bajiquan existing in and outside of China today?

No one knows but you're getting hung up on details that have nothing to do with learning the art, the only thing that matters is what's available to you where you are.

2) Where are they from and where are they mostly practised today?

Again this information would take a BOOK to answer and it's irrelevant to someone who doesn't even have a teacher in the style to begin with.

3) What similarities do they share and what makes them different?

They all strike with the same weapons and follow the same principles and theories. What sets them apart is the size, build, attitude and personality and experience of the teacher, because those things will decide which techniques that lineage emphasizes. The techniques a lineage prefers will decide their timing and energy release. In other words until you know one style, its impossible to understand the differences, and once you know one style the similarities will become apparent (along with the differences).

4) What are the most traditional of these styles? And what's your definition of traditional?

These are the questions of a Scholar, not someone who is trying to grasp the art because every lineage will answer that question differently

5) The Forms: It's my understanding that there are 20 (?) standard forms that are shared by all branches of Bajiquan...is this accurate? If so, what are they all?

No, it's not accurate. You're kidding right?

Also, I've heard people from the Liu family style say in their history of Baji that Wu Zhong had no descendants, and yet I've also heard many others say the the man by the name of Wu Lian Zhi in Mencun, Hebei (Baji's birthplace, apparently) who is the head of the Wu Family Style, is Wu Zhong lineage (in fact i've even seen a provided family tree of it)...Does anyone know for sure?

Lineage wars are impossible to verify and useless to the practitioner, if the teacher has something worthwhile study with him, in the martial arts it's what you can do that matters not pieces of paper or spoken words. Look, listen, FEEL, decide.

I hope that any of you might be able to assist my curiosity...I know I ask a lot...and I'm sure I'll have more questions, too...but I thought that the Martial Arts Forums would be the best place for this post.

All the books on the planet wouldn't contain the info you've requested and none of it is applicable to the usage or learning of the art. It seems like you're researching to write a book instead of asking the questions someone wanting to find a teacher should be asking. Unless you're looking to sell your skills to others lineage should be the last thing on your mind, and anyone with any real understanding of the CMA's knows no two schools lineage will agree so it's all pointless anyway, except to gullible people who can be sold a name. Lineage is like a paint job on a car, its nice to have a pretty one but it's far more important that the car works than how many people it will impress, look for the fruit not the flower.

Take a look at these clips, all are legitimate Baji and all of them will have a different lineage, but one isn't better than another unless you can learn one and not the other, then the one you can learn is best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYikolf7udw&mode=related&search=bajiquan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNYUa2cxGjM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA9a977HzFg&mode=related&search=

[Baji87]

Certainly language is a problem, but I'm lucky enough to have friends who speak great English who will be willing to learn it with me. And soon I'll begin Mandarin courses myself.

No one knows the Styles or Families of Bajiquan? I know several, just not many...I know Wu which is the local taught in Mengcun...I know Huo Style which is taught in Changchun...Ma-Feng in Gansu...Liu style in Taiwan... But that's about all I know... so, I know where to go to find instructors, the problem is I now live in a very "small" city of 4,000,000 people, and if I am going to find someone, it is going to be a private, non-advertised person, unless I want to relocate to one of the aforementioned areas.

So, I continue to look here for now (because relocating is a big step)...and I continue to look for information about Baji because I am afforded the luxury that I can live anywhere I want to in China if I want, so I don't have to just settle for what's "available where I am".

"They all strike with the same weapons and follow the same principles and theories. What sets them apart is the size, build, attitude and personality and experience of the teacher, because those things will decide which techniques that lineage emphasizes. The techniques a lineage prefers will decide their timing and energy release." <---these are exactly the things I would like described to me about the different popular styles (such as Wu, Huo, and Ma-Feng), even if I can't completely understand until I learn one, I can at least get an idea about the things I'm going to learn.

Why's it hard to tell what is the more traditional styles? For example, I know more about Liu system than any other, and because of what I know I do not want to learn it. I don't care for the fact that they combine and intertwine multiple systems. To me, I would consider this more modern Baji, though some might argue it's the original combination of pigua and baji...hehe

You ask if I am "kidding" that there are common forms throughout the systems? Well, Bajimen (an apparently respected source on the subject) starts to list common forms among styles but stops after 5 or so...

Is there are difference between styles and branches in Baji? Does anyone know what they are?

You are right the that the truth of the lineage's does not matter...but being a student of History it is something I would like to know, even if people have differing stories and opinions.

You say I am not asking the right questions...I disagree...I'm asking all the questions I need or would liked answered from here. If some knows a baji instructor near me (doubtful), great! If not, oh well.

Thanks for the videos but I've seen them all. All very interesting. The internet used to seem so big...

Thanks for the welcome,

Eric

[ttsure]

My Comments

On the issue of BaJiQuan and your trying to learn all these different styles of the art. My comments are:

1. It might take you one year of practicing the same things to even grasp the introductory lesson of one of those styles.

2. Find one teacher you like and stick with him to learn the technique.

3. Better to know one style very well than many styles not so well.

4. The teachings of these styles takes much time -- do not hop around so much. You can "see" the techniques dozens of times but you have to practice them hundreds of times before you learn them.

5. In general, at least in the US there are very very few teachers of these styles, and not many of them advertise it. I have been to China only once, but they seem to advertise less over there.

[Tom Yum]

Bajiquan fight on tape and t.v.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ir0MWNtMv4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0JQG-Atg9o

[kingoftheforest]

A little leg work could help you a lot.

Eight infinite fist style.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=19635&highlight=baji

If you look hard enough there is plenty of info in this thread.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Bajiquan fight on tape and t.v.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ir0MWNtMv4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0JQG-Atg9o

those fights erre heavily restricted by rules. they didnt even allow punches to the face. what a joke. plus, a few moves they did in that first fight were blatantly coriagraphed.

[kingoftheforest]

Sports

That's about as realistic to Baji as the Tae Kwon Do tournaments are to real Tae Kwon Do.

Sorry what they were doing is crap. That is a sport version not a real MA version

If you have rules and wear protective gear it's a sport. That was a sport not REAL Baji.

While entertaining and thank you Tom for putting forth a effort to at least find some video of Baji in action that was still a sporting event.

Her is a very short clip that is as close to Baji on uboob as you can get. Note I said as close as you can get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPP_ndXVsgU&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5gfEdDHLZ4&mode=related&search=

[Baji87]

My Responses...

ttsure-

1) It is my understanding that in all schools the initial rigours are something that many can not endure and give up during. I'm up to the challenge.

2) I'm currently in the process of finding a teacher "I like"....though I'ld also go for one that was just ok if he is really skilled...

3) "Better to know one style very well than many styles not so well." I couldn't say it better myself, which is why I am doing a bit of research before I jump in to any one of the styles.

4) I Understand.

5) True, they do advertise little over here, with the exception of a few large schools in Changchun, Tianjin, and Canzhou....its mostly word of mouth which is why I keep yappin'...

thanks...

----------

Eveyone else, thanks for the vids, all very interesting...I'm still waiting to see Full Contact NHB Lei Tai fights though...

[BoarSpear]

Eveyone else, thanks for the vids, all very interesting...I'm still waiting to see Full Contact NHB Lei Tai fights though...

I've posted this clip many times in the past along along with the history and explaining the sheer number of deaths caused the Gov't to ban full contact Lei Tai matches. Feel free to search.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjq-4ptpR3M

[Tom Yum]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2ETiQZzw6w

[BoarSpear]

Hey Tom I noticed your sig notes to yourself, just remember this, "there are no bridges in the Navy." (if it doesnt make sense now it will)

[Tom Yum]

Roger that. I see what you mean....by boat.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

.

Her is a very short clip that is as close to Baji on uboob as you can get. Note I said as close as you can get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPP_ndXVsgU&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5gfE...elated&search=

i get what you mean but no offense, those last 2 videos you posted looked even more weaksauce.

[kingoftheforest]

Limited understanding

i get what you mean but no offense, those last 2 videos you posted looked even more weaksauce.

Thats because you don't have any idea what you are looking at. Everything you have been taught is about generating power through sheer muscle in one area of your body and not by using the whole body to generate it.

Therefore arguing with you any more on this matter would be a waste of time till you understand the basic concepts of what makes CMA's work.

But thanks for at least taking the time to watch them