Wing Chun used in Street Fight

[Liberty]

Tom, allow me to quote myself from post # 45 above - "Again if your "Kamon must be doing something right..." means that they are attempting to evolve their Wing Chun into an actual fighting art (many BJJ moves/holds/submissions would not qualify as they are easily escaped via a nice juicy bite/eye-gouge/groin crush, etc), then okay. The jury, however, is still out."

My BJJ remarks, including the one about tapping out (my last post) had to do with it'sapplication in the street, where it's vital to remain on one's feet. To those in Wing Chun who would attempt to improve Wing Chun by adding BJJ to it when their claim is that Wing Chun is not a sport (which it is not).

I personally do not agree with mixing sport grappling with street self defence training. I personally train for each separately and vastly differently. I don't expect anyone to agree with me on this or not. It's what I feel I have to train in. Enjoyed your last post.

[Red Rum]

I don't know; it depends on what you mean by "amazing quality. Far too many clips of Wing Chun on youtube by every "master" and or student at every level purport thier having been blown away by the video they post. One watches these clip only to discover once more it's poster meant something along the lines of, "Wow, look at "how fast/skillfull/dealy/etc.," is against a cooperative lackey/wooden dummy or what have you..."

In other words, the clips poster is impressed by demos having nothing to do with actual fighting skill. So, "amazing skill" is vague - amazing in what sense?

Again if your "Kamon must be doing something right..." means that they are attempting to evolve their Wing Chun into an actual fighting art (many BJJ moves/holds/submissions would not qualify as they are easily escaped via a nice juicy bite/eye-gouge/groin crush, etc), then okay. The jury, however, is still out.

I say all this respectfully. I have to believe that given Yip Man's, Hawkins Cheung's, Wong Sheung Leung's and Bruce Lee's own streetfighting legacy - especially Lee's, given the eye witness testimony of people of high integrity (the late James Lee, Taky Kimura, Dan Inosanto, Hawkins himself, et al) who were blown away by his Wing Chun, that the art, in the right hands is an awesome one. And Lee supposedly knew just a third of the art!

So, it's on you, the Wing Chun individual, as much as it is on the art's continued evolvement, and that, along the lines of what it's many practitioners claim - street fight science, not sport.

Sorry for the late reply.
Yeah, Bod had it spot on.
My point was that a lot of people are saying that wing chun is so poor that no-one of talent would do it
My point was that people like Kevin Chan who now holds a black belt in BJJ still considers wing chun to be his most useful art. So wing chun must have something going for it
Kamon is still creating its 'black belts' page, where we will be displaying guys who train with us who hold black belts in other arts

It doesn't mean that wing chun is the best system out there, only that it must be an okay art if these kind of guys are choosing to do it

As I said before, Bruce Lee evolved into what he became because he started with a good platform (wing chun) and then evolved it so that it would work in the Western world

A lot of schools are still so traditional in wing chun that it does not survive in the West against giant pub fighters, brawlers etc

If you look at some of the rooftop fights of the 50s and compare it to Cage Rage or UFC etc, there are marked dfifferences

Every culture fights differently. And that is exactly what Bruce found when he went to America. So many wing chun schools have to adapt (whilst keeping traditional moves) the style

Part of that is just changing drills slightly. The other part is involving other arts to fill the gaps that wing chun miss (groundwork, long range fighting etc)

[DickHardman]

"it doesnt matter, ill probably get hit by a car anyway......"

[Tom Yum]

Tom, allow me to quote myself from post # 45 above - "Again if your "Kamon must be doing something right..." means that they are attempting to evolve their Wing Chun into an actual fighting art (many BJJ moves/holds/submissions would not qualify as they are easily escaped via a nice juicy bite/eye-gouge/groin crush, etc), then okay. The jury, however, is still out.".

Which moves?

The guillotine might be one of them I can think of off hand, but I'd like to see your list. Maybe a lapel choke?

My BJJ remarks, including the one about tapping out (my last post) had to do with it'sapplication in the street, where it's vital to remain on one's feet. To those in Wing Chun who would attempt to improve Wing Chun by adding BJJ to it when their claim is that Wing Chun is not a sport (which it is not)..

Jiu-jitsu itself is not a sport, remember? Brazillian jiu-jitsu can be used in empty handed situations. Just like Boxing can. Both have sport sides to them; both can be used to some degree in self-defense.

Remember when Tyson got jumped a few years ago by 2 guys? Tyson took them both out without any problems without taking the fight to the ground. In another press-release, one of the attackers is reported to have pulled out a metal bar to try and stop Tyson after clearly pissing him off.

http://www.rediff.com/sports/2003/oct/01tyson.htm

I personally do not agree with mixing sport grappling with street self defence training. I personally train for each separately and vastly differently. I don't expect anyone to agree with me on this or not. It's what I feel I have to train in. Enjoyed your last post.

Thanks, Liberty. I enjoy discussing the topic as well and respect your position on staying with your chosen art.

If you change the mindset of training and tweek a few things, I think you can turn a sport art into a combat one - why? Most sport arts were derived from killing-maiming arts. take Tae Kwon Do for instance. The USMC has documented the effectiveness of Tae Kwon Do when used by South Korean Mercenaries during Vietnam - according to reports from the USMC.

http://www.mca-marines.org/Gazette/2005/05durand.html

"In establishing the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP), Gen James L. Jones frequently recounted his observations of Korean Marines during the Vietnam War. The fact that Republic of Korea (ROK) servicemen were skilled in the Korean martial art tae kwon do was widely known, evoking respect among allies and instilling fear in the enemy. The former Commandant recalled that his own Marines envied this skill, believing the Korean Marines were the most feared adversary on the battlefield and that North Vietnamese soldiers and Viet Cong irregulars would bypass Korean units whenever possible.

Despite a long and rich martial arts history, the Korean martial arts program was in its relative infancy at the time of the Vietnam War; tae kwon do had yet to achieve its current status as a national pastime or an international sport. Nonetheless, tae kwon do was a martial art in the truest sense of the word, developed by a soldier to enhance the fighting abilities of his soldiers. By the time the first servicemen deployed to Vietnam, all branches of the Korean military had implemented martial arts training programs. Moreover, it was in Vietnam that the value of martial arts training in combat operations was conclusively demonstrated. Accordingly, the history of tae kwon do in the Korean Armed Forces provides valuable insight to American Marines as the MCMAP enters its fifth year."

[DickHardman]

Which moves?

The guillotine might be one of them I can think of off hand, but I'd like to see your list. Maybe a lapel choke?





Jiu-jitsu itself is not a sport, remember? Brazillian jiu-jitsu can be used in empty handed situations. Just like Boxing can. Both have sport sides to them; both can be used to some degree in self-defense.

Remember when Tyson got jumped a few years ago by 2 guys? Tyson took them both out without any problems without taking the fight to the ground. In another press-release, one of the attackers is reported to have pulled out a metal bar to try and stop Tyson after clearly pissing him off.

http://www.rediff.com/sports/2003/oct/01tyson.htm

Thanks, Liberty. I enjoy discussing the topic as well and respect your position on staying with your chosen art.

If you change the mindset of training and tweek a few things, I think you can turn a sport art into a combat one - why? Most sport arts were derived from killing-maiming arts. take Tae Kwon Do for instance. The USMC has documented the effectiveness of Tae Kwon Do when used by South Korean Mercenaries during Vietnam - according to reports from the USMC.

http://www.mca-marines.org/Gazette/2005/05durand.html

"In establishing the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP), Gen James L. Jones frequently recounted his observations of Korean Marines during the Vietnam War. The fact that Republic of Korea (ROK) servicemen were skilled in the Korean martial art tae kwon do was widely known, evoking respect among allies and instilling fear in the enemy. The former Commandant recalled that his own Marines envied this skill, believing the Korean Marines were the most feared adversary on the battlefield and that North Vietnamese soldiers and Viet Cong irregulars would bypass Korean units whenever possible.

Despite a long and rich martial arts history, the Korean martial arts program was in its relative infancy at the time of the Vietnam War; tae kwon do had yet to achieve its current status as a national pastime or an international sport. Nonetheless, tae kwon do was a martial art in the truest sense of the word, developed by a soldier to enhance the fighting abilities of his soldiers. By the time the first servicemen deployed to Vietnam, all branches of the Korean military had implemented martial arts training programs. Moreover, it was in Vietnam that the value of martial arts training in combat operations was conclusively demonstrated. Accordingly, the history of tae kwon do in the Korean Armed Forces provides valuable insight to American Marines as the MCMAP enters its fifth year."

in my studies of the vietnam war, i also read about how south korean troops were the most feared of all. they were tough, skilled, and showed no mercy to the enemy. they would have no problem wiping out entire hamlets to avenge the loss of a single south korean to a vc sniper.

the tkd they used was most likely nothing like the tkd we see today though right? it was probobly utilized a decent amount of hand strikes like knife hands and hammer fists and things like that which are great for self defense.

[DickHardman]

btw tom, sounds like you been training a lot of grappling over there in the military, is that correct?

[Tom Yum]

in my studies of the vietnam war, i also read about how south korean troops were the most feared of all. they were tough, skilled, and showed no mercy to the enemy. they would have no problem wiping out entire hamlets to avenge the loss of a single south korean to a vc sniper.

the tkd they used was most likely nothing like the tkd we see today though right? it was probobly utilized a decent amount of hand strikes like knife hands and hammer fists and things like that which are great for self defense.

Yeah, you probably wouldn't see too many tornado kicks, jump spin kicks etc. just basic open handed striking and kicking - probably at all levels, but with atleast one foot on the ground. Knife work too.

I'm not doing any hand to hand or CQB training just yet, guys. I've got a while to go.

Any hand to hand stuff that I want to do now is on my own - at some point I'll get some time down the line I'll get CQB training.

[Liberty]

[QUOTE=Tom Yum;291296]Which moves?

The guillotine might be one of them I can think of off hand, but I'd like to see your list. Maybe a lapel choke?

Jiu-jitsu itself is not a sport, remember? Brazillian jiu-jitsu can be used in empty handed situations. Just like Boxing can. Both have sport sides to them; both can be used to some degree in self-defense.

Remember when Tyson got jumped a few years ago by 2 guys? Tyson took them both out without any problems without taking the fight to the ground. In another press-release, one of the attackers is reported to have pulled out a metal bar to try and stop Tyson after clearly pissing him off.

http://www.rediff.com/sports/2003/oct/01tyson.htm [QUOTE]

Here is a short list:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNR9IBuDGDc[/YOUTUBE]

And, I agree - Jiu-jitsu itself is not a sport. BJJ is. Jiu-jitsu is pure, no holds bared self-defense.

As for Tyson, how many Chunners/"martial" artists train to be that ugly if need be? Here Vunak's camp is right on the money. Personally, I have no qualms whatsoever about taking someone out in a life-threatening situation - none what so-ever. I long ago reconciled the fact that some individuals are heartless, absolutely cruel and that there is no sense in not training for their eventuality. When I see trouble, I cross the street. But I'll be damed if I am not going to train to take those types out if need be. Especially given how many by-standers will stand by and do nothing, frozen in their lack of training for such ugliness. We can't all be Frank Shamrock's, Rampages, et al. I have no doubt they'd not fare well in the street, if need be. But they are indivuald tapped into their adrenalin. Thus we must train for that type of do or die fighting until it is instinct. Fully committed to walking away peacefully yet just as committed to the ugly if that's unavoidable. That is a different kind of training then merely rolling around taping someone when they've got us in a hold. It requires a mindset - an anger, a viciousness tappped into til it is there on call. A striking from that, a grappling from that. An ugly kind of training. Again, that is my midset.

Here is something worth reading:

http://www.submissions101.com/hh.htm

That said, this sight is awesome:

http://www.submissions101.com/grappling.htm

Peace

[jubaji]

[QUOTE=Liberty;291316]

Personally, I have no qualms whatsoever about taking someone out in a life-threatening situation - none what so-ever.

Hmmmmm...


Meaning what, exactly?

[Liberty]

[QUOTE=jubaji;291317]

Hmmmmm...


Meaning what, exactly?

Troublemaker - LOL!

[Ghost]

actually i think Librarians post was very good.
Though im not sure we NEED to train for it, as its so unlikely to happen.
However, if you want to train for self defense then i think he sums it up well.

[Liberty]

actually i think Librarians post was very good.
Though im not sure we NEED to train for it, as its so unlikely to happen.
However, if you want to train for self defense then i think he sums it up well.

"Librarian," hunh? Ha, ha, ha, ha - gotta love you guys - dude, that was hilarious! Hadn't thought of humour as an escape move - crack the guy over the psyche with a few good one-liners - hit'em/break free as he busts out laughing - good one!

[Ghost]

"Librarian," hunh? Ha, ha, ha, ha - gotta love you guys - dude, that was hilarious! Hadn't thought of humour as an escape move - crack the guy over the psyche with a few good one-liners - hit'em/break free as he busts out laughing - good one!

lol i was being serious though with the rest of it, i thought it was a good post. Though i do think the chance of being attacked like that is so small as to not be worth wasting time training for, unless you want to , but if you do want to then your idea is about spot on.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

[QUOTE=jubaji;291317]

Hmmmmm...


Meaning what, exactly?

Don't sleep with Tom's girl friend.

[Tom Yum]

[QUOTE=jubaji;291317]

Hmmmmm...


Meaning what, exactly?

Wasn't my post, jubs. He messed up the HTML and included his statement in there. Check my original posts.

Later


PS - what BJJ said