differences between shaolin and wing chun ?

[Paul-M]

I've been practising Shaolin Kung Fu for about 10 months and aim to keep going with it, but there's a lot of Wing Chun academies near me and I just wondered, can anyone outline some of the most obvious differences for me? Or are they quite similar?

[IPON]

There are many styles that comprise Shaolin MA, wing chun is just one style. It would be difficult to answer your question unless I know the specific styles. In general, most shaolin fighting styles are internal with long stances and generally will take about 8-10 year to be truely proficient. Wing chun is a close range fighting style which can be mastered in far les time. I know these are not that detailed but maybe others will fill in the gaps.

If the question is what is better or more practicle it will depend on what you want out of training (i.e to learn a traditional style, just to fight, sport, etc).

[Paul-M]

Thanks that's very helpful, I just wanted to know whether it was worth doing both but I'll probably do something else, Muay Thai or MMA maybe. Thanks for your help.

[bodhisattva]

Why not, instead, train a martial art that will make you very proficient within a year? Why train one that promises proficiency in ten years and even that is in question - as they never really prove their proficiency in contest, or competition? Why train an art like that? It promises "spiritual growth" but if it is a martial art that doesn't even teach you to fight well until you have studied for a decade, perhaps it doesn't have much to offer in the area of spiritual growth, either?

Just some thoughts.

[Paul-M]

True, didn't really answer my question but I see where you're coming from. That's actually part of the reason I wanna do MMA, after 10 months of shaolin I can kick and punch better,but when it comes to avoiding and reacting I'm still not too good, we only spar in about 1 in 4 sessions and even then never for very long.

[Paul-M]

I just feel that Kung Fu is too traditional and has a lot of forms, however it is great for fitness and I really enjoy it, so I plan on doing something more fighting-oriented but keeping up the Kung Fu aswell, I was simply asking the differences between Shaolin and WC for my own interest and knowledge, IPON answered that for me and then bodhisattva mentioned the whole length of time to become proficient thing and that's when I mentioned the possibility of MMA. Both were helpful, thanks.

[Red Rum]

Why not, instead, train a martial art that will make you very proficient within a year? Why train one that promises proficiency in ten years and even that is in question - as they never really prove their proficiency in contest, or competition? Why train an art like that? It promises "spiritual growth" but if it is a martial art that doesn't even teach you to fight well until you have studied for a decade, perhaps it doesn't have much to offer in the area of spiritual growth, either?

Just some thoughts.

Again, Bod, you are generalizing wing chun and shaolin arts under one flag.
I could show you some very poor grappling schools that have no clue about streetfighting and state that all grappling is rubbish.
But as most SENSIBLE people know, you can't judge an art by 1 club!
I have been to numerous wing chun schools and yeah there have been a few that fought by slapping hands away etc
Yet there are a few good schools around that emphasise techniques that work and make students aware that horse stances are not fighting stances but training stances, designed to help build up leg power

[bodhisattva]

Again, Bod, you are generalizing wing chun and shaolin arts under one flag.
I could show you some very poor grappling schools that have no clue about streetfighting and state that all grappling is rubbish.
But as most SENSIBLE people know, you can't judge an art by 1 club!
I have been to numerous wing chun schools and yeah there have been a few that fought by slapping hands away etc
Yet there are a few good schools around that emphasise techniques that work and make students aware that horse stances are not fighting stances but training stances, designed to help build up leg power

If horse stances aren't fighting stances, I'm going to spend exactly zero minutes in one.

There are so many better ways to build up leg power that I won't even bother writing them all - cause most all of them are better than standing in some horse stance, throwing punches form the hip and shouting a Kiai on every punch. but if you want real leg power, I'd suggest you work some Squats and some Deadlifts - after first having a qualified individual teach you to do them correctly.

I'm not judging an art by 1 club. As most SENSIBLE people know, you shouldn't assume things about people you don't know - as you are doing with me. I gave more time (and lost $$$ to a fraudulent "self defense" system) than I care to mention to various traditional martial arts schools. They are crap. I am sorry if that upsets people, but I am only speaking the truth. If you enjoy doing kata and eagle claws and dragon beaks and crane weiner strikes, then COOL.

Just don't tell people it's "self defense" or "martial art" because it is neither, and you'll be a lying, stealing fraud. And you'll get people hurt.

I have never seen a grappling school that sucked - truly. I'm sure one exists, but really, grappling is of a nature that you are working against LIVE OPPONENTS every day you train. And people simply don't suck when they train against LIVE OPPONENTS that totaly resist them, every day they train.

That is the nature of live training - training in alive environments.

I would put any Freshman wrestler, even the 110 pounder, up against any 150 pound "shaolin guy." any day.

[npk9]

If I may ask what Shaolin style do you do? Also what kind of school? Is there a school website? There's nothing wrong with going Traditional but you really have to ask yourself. What do you want?

I've done started out in traditional Shaolin back in 1992. Starting with Southern, then I started doing alittle bit of Northern a couple years after that. I did a lot of forms competition at the national level (USWKF, USCKF). I then did San Shou/San Da at the end of my form competition career (if you could call it that). I have been fighting competitively for 3 years (as much as I can) my rec is 4-1 @ 155lbs this is fighting with the (USKBA San Da rules).

The reason why I'm asking and the reason why I'm giving you my background is that I've been there and done it with CMA. Which is why I ask - what do you want out of it?

I don't think "110lbs Freshman Wrestler up against any 150lbs shaolin guy" is really good statement to make but I understand where he's coming from. A lot of CMA people aren't good combat sports fighters - pointsparers at best. If any school states that their system is an awesome "self-defense" style and doesn't really do "MMA" or "full contact" fighting - I would avoid. Self-defense and combat sports are different but the training methodolgies do overlap.

To put in my opinion - I really do not like Wing Chun - as a style. I do not like there stances. There system answers low kicks with a stomp kick (WTF!?). I have no idea if they even have takedowns or takedown defences. I don't think there 3 forms address that either. But not to totally bash there system - I like how they are always address to protect the center line, there trapping is neat but that's all it is - neat.

But from an overview from a school to school stand point - most WC school are very cultish and ethnocentric in there class. A lot of Shaolin schools and TCMA fall into that category as well but there are few good ones that try to overcome that "Grandmaster" status.

[Paul-M]

I do Shaolin Nam Pai Chuan, which is a combination of North and South, the website is www.cardiffcentralkungfu.org.uk. I started out just wanting to do martial arts, not knowing much about them and Kung Fu looked and sounded really cool. I really loved the sparring straight away which is why I wanna take up a more fighting oriented art like MMA or Muay Thai, but at the same time I wanna keep up the Shaolin because I enjoy forms. A lot of people say forms are not helpful for combat and I understand that but I still think they are good to practice, I love that moment when you have been trying to learn a form and it suddenly clicks, and flowing through one you have been training for a while is really relaxing.

I guess I'm weird with what I want, wanting to fight and spar but also wanting to learn forms, most people choose either direction and stick with it.

[Red Rum]

If horse stances aren't fighting stances, I'm going to spend exactly zero minutes in one.

There are so many better ways to build up leg power that I won't even bother writing them all - cause most all of them are better than standing in some horse stance, throwing punches form the hip and shouting a Kiai on every punch. but if you want real leg power, I'd suggest you work some Squats and some Deadlifts - after first having a qualified individual teach you to do them correctly..

The idea of training stance is that it is building up your arms and legs at the same time. You are training a completely different set of muscles doing squats and they are useless in what you are trying to acheive by the wing chun system

Just don't tell people it's "self defense" or "martial art" because it is neither, and you'll be a lying, stealing fraud. And you'll get people hurt...

Strange how wing chun has worked in fights I have been in, my sifu has been in and even my students have been in. I could easily teach a boxercise class and make double the money that I do now. But wing chun works, plain and simple. If it didn't, why do you think I would be doing it. I am sorry if you were ripped off and that school should be dealt with by the authorities, but I know numerous health clubs that have ripped off their members
(one helath club run by Sally Gunnell in my home town got people to pay memberships for the year and then the owners ran off with the money!)
These things happen but you shouldn't let it get to you and you shouldn't blame every wing chun school in the world. If you are ever in the UK, come down to my class and I will show you round good wing chun schools before

I have never seen a grappling school that sucked - truly. I'm sure one exists, but really, grappling is of a nature that you are working against LIVE OPPONENTS every day you train. And people simply don't suck when they train against LIVE OPPONENTS that totaly resist them, every day they train.

That is the nature of live training - training in alive environments.

I would put any Freshman wrestler, even the 110 pounder, up against any 150 pound "shaolin guy." any day.

What wing chun school did you go to that didn't train agaisnt live resisting opponents??
In my class we have 6'5'' 300 pound guys up against 5'00'' 100 pound guys!
Everyone trains with everyone and you can't ask people to be grouped by weight (as that won't happen in a street fight)

I have a very limited experience of Shaolin arts, so won't comment on them, but I wouldn't be so close minded as to state that one art will always beat another. I fight wrestlers all the time and destroy them. But it doesn't mean that wing chun is automatically superior to wrestling

[npk9]

I do Shaolin Nam Pai Chuan, which is a combination of North and South, the website is www.cardiffcentralkungfu.org.uk. I started out just wanting to do martial arts, not knowing much about them and Kung Fu looked and sounded really cool. I really loved the sparring straight away which is why I wanna take up a more fighting oriented art like MMA or Muay Thai, but at the same time I wanna keep up the Shaolin because I enjoy forms. A lot of people say forms are not helpful for combat and I understand that but I still think they are good to practice, I love that moment when you have been trying to learn a form and it suddenly clicks, and flowing through one you have been training for a while is really relaxing.

I guess I'm weird with what I want, wanting to fight and spar but also wanting to learn forms, most people choose either direction and stick with it.

I agree with Mike - nothing wrong with doing forms. I honestly do believe that forms do increase body awareness. Now how much of that can translate in the ring remains to be seen. Don't get me wrong - I love fighting. I wouldn't go back into form competition if I only had to pick one. I think people bash forms because they can't do it well themselves. On the other hand I think that people who do forms and don't fight (and later on become instructors) do the greatest disservice to their school and system.

This might be a bad comparison but I equate fighting to Jazz. You can't go on fixed set of notes - you have to play from the heart and it has to be impromptu so you can change with the beat and feel of the music. Forms = classical music. They are predetermined. The art of the "Masters" (whatever that means) - you cannot deviate from what is written.

Now with that being said. Of course Jazz players have there Jazz music and Jazz exercises and way of doing things. So does Classical music. But many musicians do both and those that do both show it in there music - its a little different there's distinct flavor.

Lets be honest. BJJ, MT, Wrestling seem to be the staple of MMA - you see ground and pound, beautiful JJ when its done in the ring. Heavy handed knockouts. The seldom knee to the face (when ducking into it). Very few MMA fighters are known for strong kicks (Crocop -anyone else??), how about nice throws (Karo,???), to name a couple guys that are slightly different - these guys might not be the greatest MMA guys but they sure are memorable. I'm not knocking the others for sticking to the "what works" regiment. Because when it comes down to it - it's always "what works". I guess my point is - if you have patiance and are willing to train in other aspects that aren't totally into "combat" - you can only gain that much more experience and insight.

[bodhisattva]

No, you aren't. This is called "voicing opinions," not speaking the truth. Big, huge difference.

Show me the guy who learned to box by doing kata, then?

See, until you do that, you are just voicing opinions, as well.

Kata never did a thing for me - honestly. Boxing training did. Wrestling training then later Judo and BJJ - these all taught me to fight.

Kata made me a worse fighter than before I did them.

My time spent in Isshin Ryu Karate, Tae Kwon Do, CMA, all that time was wasted. The only thing gained from all that time is that now I can tell others not to waste their time.

That's not an opinion, that's the truth.

[IPON]

That's not an opinion, that's the truth.

It's your truth perhaps, but it's an an opinion concerning MAs. Sorry you had such bad experiences but that does not mean all MAs are bad and MMA is the best.

Katas is practice-training and in my opion very valuable, but it does not equal fighting...it's not supposed to. There are SD Katas and Judo does have Katas. But I agree, if all your training are Kata with no application you will just master Kata.

The bigger point is none of this has anything to do with the thread. The poster asked about CMAs on a CMA forum and your response is basically like "traditional arts are all garbage MMA is the best" isn't this argument getting tired and old already. Hey you don't like Kata, angry about the poor instructors, you had it with traditional schools..fine but don't ridicule someone who enjoys wht they are doing...Paul-m like's CMAs let it go.

[jubaji]

I fight wrestlers all the time and destroy them.

You wouldn't happen to have a video of that, would you?