Martial Arts Forms

[martialartspeon]

Has anyone here who has trained in Kung Fu with lots of forms work as well as MMA find it a good use of time for the martial aspects of fighting?

[KungfuJeremy]

I've found form work for me has worked quite well for fighting aspects, but it all depends on the practitioner. Im slightly experienced in mma but i'd be lying if i said i was equally trained in both mma and kungfu. Ive trained with a few of my buddies who are in mma and ive done quite well against them. I use everything i learn, with forms, i train my muscles to do a movement. If you practice something over and over again you develop muscle memory and it becomes a reflex. I think mma will train you to fight more effective at a quicker pace, but form work can be productive and work just as well, but it will most likely take longer.
The plus side in my opinion is forms are a good way to workout and express yourself, that will help develop muscle memory, speed, and timing. While some negative aspects is that your hitting thin air, you have to use imagination to put an opponent in front of you, and it takes time to learn and master.
While in mma you constantly have something to hit, whether it be pads or a sparring partner. Your forced to fight in mma.
I hope that kind of answers your question.

[Hot_Wings]

I just started Toas Nabard Kung Fu (Just had my second class today) and we do forms, but we also hit the bags and spar as well.

As it says in the book “The Making of a Butterfly” on page 49, “The striking post was one of Chen’s favorite training devices.” (makiwara) “You can practice techniques all day long but you will never know if your sword (weapons, hands, ect) is really strong or sharp until you hit something. You will not know if you are making mistakes, either. This post will whisper the truth in your ears.”

As well, he goes on to state: “You must practice this (hitting the bag) every day. Winter, summer, rain, snow…every day. In two years you will have very strong weapons.”

I have heard on this forum a lot of stories from people who say that all they do are forms all day long. How long have they been training? Two weeks? Six months? I don’t know, but the Kung Fu place that I go too starts you on bags and sparing pretty quickly. In fact, Master Soffakhu has even developed his own specialized training equipment for hiting and kicking things.

Obviously you have to learn the basics first though I guess. I mean if you don’t even know how to punch correctly should your sifu let you spar? Won’t you only screw up your training by learning bad habits through sparing before you know what you’re supposed to be doing? As well, if you don’t know the defensives moves right then letting you spar too quickly could just get you needlessly hurt perhaps? I don’t know, but I would imagine that these are valid concerns.

I think that you should talk to your sifu about your concerns and find out what he or she says about sparing and things like the Makiwara and punching bags. As well, just know that other places, like the Toas Nabard Kung Fu that I am now taking start you off on weapons and things like Iron Body training right from the get go. So, please don’t think that all Kung Fu places only do forms for 5 years and never any actual contact with anything.

Have a good one.

[martialartspeon]

Forms and muscle memory I do notice that in myself. So I guess you are right it is helpful. It is still hard for me too see how practical it is for true street fight training. I'm thinking something like Krav Maga or Systema might be worth checking out for me.

[SmallThought]

why train forms???

As has been stated previously, forms help perfect technique and develop specific muscle groups useful to your particular art. However, when talking about there usefulness for developing FIGHT skills, to me the biggest lesson form learn is developing a sense of perserverance when all you really want to do is pack up, go home and have a nice cold beer... Perserverance is crucial to fighting, but if you just really want to learn to fight, then fight a lot; get beaten, develope a bad attitude and some dirty tricks; become insanely agressive and fight some more.

May i just say that this is not an approach that i advocate, but it really will teach you how to fight like nothing else will... I hope you don't go down that road and persist with training perserverance and avoidance; just make sure you add some pepper into your training and turn up the gas a little from time to time to make sure you get those techniques really sizzling.

Have fun.

[zirk]

In my humble opinion, the forms themselves are not ment to be muscle memory or anything.

The forms themselves can have various functions:

-Pure exercise to stenghten and strech.
-Somwhat 'hidden' formulas for the system
-Mixed in 'philosphy' for the spesific art
-General movement of the style (using whole body)

The actual techniques often looks nothing like how they are played in a form. What you must do is understand what the movements are, and train, train,train how to execute a few of the chosen techniques.

Ie, what might look like a bogus long arm movement might in reality be a short block and jab, resembling a western boxers style.

So why not just train the applications modarn way, and skip the entire form ? Beats me. Each and everyones taste. I am a 'kung fu' dude myself, but I have no problems seing that someone just spending all training sessions doing a few selected applications and conditioning would be a better fighter than me. I want my selected applications to work, but I have no need or deisre to be a killing machine.

When I learn a new form I 'refuse' to go ahead before I understand the application usage and mechanics behind the move. If it fits me, I train that usage, if it doesnt, I just accept it as a useless (for me) move in a form I learn.

[Oraenor]

forms let you try new stuff in training and in reverse you get to develop that form better

[Red Rum]

The way I like to think about it is that training on your own can be boring and sometimes even detrimental to certain techniques

I know that people favour wooden dummy etc but wooden dummy can make you too rigid as you are playing against a man made of wood!!

Training forms help the 'flow' of movements that you do in your particular martial art, and teach you not to do long, time wasting movements
They are not techniques you will necessarily perform in the street but uses the same 'energy and flow' in a street fight

[npk9]

.......

The only thing forms help in reference to life outside of forms (be it MMA, San Da, Muay Thai, or any contact sport) is that you develop body awareness through forms. It doens't help with technique in the ring (thats what shadow boxing is all about). Grabbing is next to impossible in MMA - and even more remote in other sports when it comes to boxing gloves. As Mike stated earlier - today's technology allows us to bypass forms as a training tool. Forms are fun to do as much as drawing. Drawing isn't going to make you an awesome painter - it'll help alittle bit but what you're doing are 2 very distinct things that as a whole put under one catagory.

Look at it this way. If today's soldiers had to do use "traditional" methods. They would start doing finger forms - then they would work there way up to weapons forms (but these weapons would be) mock m16 or m4 or whatever they use these days. No bullets in them just an empty shell and made out of alloy or spring steel (if it were wushu - LOL). Then they would be tested for qualification after several years of training - then if they were successful we can be confident that they would win battles for us.

That is how the "traditional" method prepares one for combat in the ring.

[npk9]

Let me be more specific and less ranting from my last post.

I do believe forms have there place in combat as well, but it should only be the beginning, an introduction of the technique that can be utilized for one to memorize - I just think that the vast majority of kung fu practitioners have too much faith in forms and that these forms are simply outdated. On top of that, they believe that any other training is secondary. Its good that Mike brought up forms in contextual setting with the military. This leads me to 2 very important points - which if I could address it to all the "Masters" and "Sifus" out there.

Let me identify what I considers forms: traditional forms, shadow boxing, and set of movements that have a predetermined order of concepts, or simply doing stuff in the air by yourself.

Point 1: Forms have there place in combat. When shit hits the fan - you instinctively go back to you feel comfortable with. How many times have you gone over your favorite move in your head and do it in the air? Running through different scenarios in your head before drilling them with a partner to see if it can "theoratically" work.

Point 2: Content of forms have to be on target with your goals. Doing "traditional" forms in a time that no longer uses swords and spears is slightly rediculous - especially if your goal is for self defense or sports combat. As Mike has mentioned with the military - they go through "forms" that are very job specific. Again - I believe that traditional forms HAD a place in combat training - they simply do not today.

Again - its great the Mike took my military paragraph and expanded upon it with more specific forms - something that I knew that they did but obviously not having the knowledge of it. Let me be critical of the last post as well as mine. I was specific in the use of firing. What Mike has stated is spot that soldiers prepare via dry fire. Just like how most CTMA do as well on there own with forms. The big distinction after that is soldiers have adequate training drills and actually do fire into a range and measure there accuracy. CTMA as a whole grossly lacks an adequate "after form" training to prepare a practioner who is interested in combat sports or self defense and adequate feedback on performance.

My questions to the Masters is this: Why haven't we updated our forms to conform with todays needs and society. The military has. Self defense has evolved as well as combat sports. Why keep something the same when it is no longer usefull - on top of that why praise those systems as if they were the answer to todays needs.

As I semi-seriously joke with my other friends who practice martial arts. Why isn't there a Chinese rifle form or a pistol form? Why shouldn't there be one? With today's technology you don't need to have a live rifle or pistol to see if someone has hit something on target when go through a form?

Sorry for the ranting.

[zirk]

Npk9: I think that is the very fundamental difference by modern and traditional arts. The TMA strive not for the ‘ultimate’ training methods, or for dominance in the ring.

It is the same with people doing 1818 military drills with single load muskets, they do not do it to excel on a modern Warfield, but a combination of fun, interest and exercise.

I Totally agree, that forms practice is NOT the best way to train for martial artists. What forms do is help you train movement of the entire body, strengthen your body and also list various techniques used. If all you want is to beat people up, then practice krav maga, SECA system or something else, perhaps some middle way with Kun Tao.

If you walk into a club and some sifu/master/senior student starts rambling about ‘studies show that students doing form only win over students doing only sparring, so we practice form only’, I say: get the hell out of there. It is utter rubbish..

If your instructor even hints you will be a good fighter by only doing forms, get out of there. You want to be a kung fu fighter ? Fight ! there is no other way around it. It so happens that forms are a part of CMA, with the moves hidden and concealed within a little dance. Asians have much more sense of the estetic, you don’t find many English people spending 2 hours boiling a cup of tea and serving it.

That said. Most CMA with ‘real’ roots is indeed battle tested and have fully functional moves. Much have been lost with the culture revolution, and much have been watered down, so it is ‘buyer beware’. Any CMA studio claiming forms practice is the main goal should be avoided.

You train the form as part of preserving the lineage, and if you are not comfortable with that, train something else that is not TMA. For each and every move in a form, you should be shown how to apply this move. Then you select a few of those moves that fits your way of fighting, and you start practicing them. Again and again. First against willing partner, then with more resistance, then in free sparring, then you find someone else not in your club and try perform your moves on them.

The forms are not the fighting, but it is the traditional way of teaching CMA on the road to the fighting. Without it, it would not be CMA. But without any fighting, you don’t have CMA either, just powerless forms.

I’m not saying it is the best way to learn how to fight, but it is ‘a’ way. And it so happens to be the way I enjoy training. Where I train we have around 3 hour sessions, and you can chose to follow ‘belt grading’ witch is mostly forms (empty hand and weapons), special interest witch is a chosen style (mostly singular techniques, drills, application and 2 people practice on eachother), free sparring or san-shou (well, to be honest, the san-shou instructor is a thai boxer who mixes in some MMA shoots/defence, but who cares  ).

Most students do a little of everything, so we are not masters in praying mantis nor san-shou, but it is a fun way to train, you get a little full contact, a litte kung fu sparring and learn a few tricks on the way. Some are just learning to fight and go san-shou only, others are only interested in forms and do mostly tai-chi.

[npk9]

Ahh but you touched on another point that will just make matters worst (Zirk). What was the founders intention in creating the art? We now live in time where these arts are obsolete in modern combat. Granted the tools are somewhat the same. Punch is a punch and always will be.

In CMA every substyle markets itself as a "combative style" or has a "combative makeup" w/alittle bit being cultured, disciplined or whatever positive attribute that they're trying to sell - these "positives" of training are only a by product of the whole system - that system being evolved around combat. Even the internal arts (Tai Chi, Chi Kung) states that "at a certain level you would be able to defend yourself". Discipline, fitness, improved mental focus and compacity will increase by default (from one's baseline) with training because the system demands a certain level of those proficiencies. No other sport or training that doesn't have a combative element demands so much from the body and mind.

I doubt that the founders of the those CMA at that time were thinking - well let me put this together so we can be more cultured people, or more fit or more intelligent. I think that if someone even back in that day wanted to achieve those things - they would have done so in other means and more direct means none the less.

But let's take a different look at it. Say that a founder did want to increase all those attributes through CMA and if the practioners wanted to go more heavily into combat they could but it wasn't the founders primary goal of combat. Unfortunately, no one will ever know. The people who carry on the lineage today are 10 generations or more from the founder. What do they know of the founders intention. Heck - play whisper down the lane and state a simple sentence and 10 people later you know its not the same sentence. It'll only get worst with people's interpretations as well as society mores and values. I don't know how it was back in those days but I know that in todays market.

Hypothetical situation: If I were to continue tradition from what my "Grandfather" put together back in his day via 1940's. His studied all these arts from Asia and designed his own system and passed it on with my father (who opened up a school) and passed it down to me (to keep the school going) and I was carrying the lineage. I would by default have to modify the system. I need new students to join in order to keep the school going and the revenue coming. How should I market the system? Health improvement (like Yoga, Taichi?) or more like (Cardio Kickboxing)? Should this be more MMA oriented for those who want to just duke it out? Or should market it as system with great roots from various arts combined into one and it will improve your childs overall health and you'll see your childs behavior and grades improve?

This situation again is only from today's pressures. I can only imagine what had happened in the past few decades and before.

Zirk - I agree that forms are definitely a text book of theories and applications but again - and a practioner should choose which of these fits best. Unfortunately, these are outdated techniques and applications because they deal with people that have fought a certain way in a certain period of time. Western boxers back in the 1920's don't box the way they do now. Hell even Muay Thai has evolved since its inception.

There's nothing wrong if people just want to do forms for the sake of forms. That's why they have wu shu and godforbid XMA (I hate them). I think people who promote and follow TMA's are similair to religous zealots (harsh i know) but they don't stop to critically think about the system as a whole. Maybe few will question a certain technique or even a form but there is stigmatism that questioning your master or sifu is a no no. That is very un Buddhist like - especially for CMA that have such religious roots.

[zirk]

Hello again. I must admit, I fail to see where (I) make matters worse. Unless ofcourse you are under the assumption than I consider CMA to be the ultimate death-fighting-ravage system on earth, witch I do not I cannot answer for other people, so what I state are my opinions alone.

The forms, aside from being a curium of moves is also there to train the whole body to move, and ‘follow the general guidelines’ for the system. They are also a way to strech and strengthen a body, and I can clearly see it has it use in mass training. I understand your point of ‘watering down the lineage’, but you are forgetting one aspect of it: good practicioners understand the system ! Let me take an example. A friend of mine is third degree black belt in a fairly modern version of Kun Tao (Shantung province kung fu brought to Indonesia). By attending a Long Fist seminar and watching a few movies, he can fight ‘long fist style’ as well as people practicing it for years, as he understand how the power is generated, and how that specific system delivers strikes/kicks. He can correct students of other arts in their forms, simply because he understands the very basic behind combat.

I use him as an example, because his level of skill is far ahead of mine. And if you watch him destroy (almost literally) 3 boxers on the street, you cannot deny his fighting abilities (well, he destroyed one of them, and it kind of stopped the fight there, and continued in court) I have talked a lot with him, and he denies my claims that it because he is a natural better fighter than many others, and he would say something like ‘when I was in Japan last year, I fought someone who trained ‘something’, who was about 30 times better than me, but I won because of my system’. Ok, statements like that should be taken with a grain of salt, but if you witness him in action there is no doubt he knows what he is doing, and thus (for me) makes his statement pretty credible.

But you do not go that far without questioning. I have myself ‘wasted’ a couple of years on various CMA training gyms, with ‘masters’ not able to explain even the simplest of things regarding moves, always talking about the great Chi that will tear down your enemies with a lightning bolt. And funnily enough, never entered any form of competion or engaged in fights with other people at their ‘level’. The worst I ever heard was a Sifu who made huge claims to be master ninjutsu, master ‘old style san-shou’, master ‘red dragon fly by fu’ and whatnot, but he could not compete in my country as he was ‘used to a much harder ring fight’.

He could not give me a demonstration kick on me, as it would ‘break my arm, he was trained to do that since age of 4’. So instead he gave a few kicks in the air and making some bruce-lee expression with his face.

Now, that is bogus. And from the sound of it, what you have witnessed is a lot of bogus as well. And that, in my opinion, is the real problem:

A lot of bogus! And I have a personal opinion of it as well: Walk into a Thai or boxing gym, and you see a lot of fighters. Walk into a CMA gym and you see a lot of geeks (pardon my expression). The meaning of ‘kung fu’ is ‘hard work’, and that is what a lot of CMA are not prepared for. They don’t want to train hard and fight hard, but they want to be ‘master martial artist’, and happily jumps on the wagon to take the short route. I was once told to ‘not stand against ( I don’t know the English term.. to be more cooperative’) on a hopeless student trying to perform some newly learned ‘chi na’ (locks). They simply did not work as intended/instructed, even if all I was doing was grabbing his hand and holding it still. I was told I could get serious injury if I did not follow the move, and I said I would probably go down when the technique was performed correctly, so I would take my chances. Then I started just slipping my hand out of his grip, so he could not perform it at all, to witch the instructor said ‘well, he let go, so there should be no further need to continue the move’. So the whole point with a rather complicated lock was for me to let go of his hand. Yeah right. One more place I did not want to train.

And I can count numerous times in ‘pre designed drills’, where my partner (who have done this routine for years) starts doing the blocks long before I have made my punch. Or if I have deliberately been to slow to perform my block, his punch would miss by a mile. Now, where is the training in that ? (I have been to quite some gyms, due to moving around)

So to sum up my views, after all this rather rambling nonsense, and quite getting off topic:
- Forms are ok to do, but you must combine it with actually performing the moves on an unwilling partner
- If you just want to fight, CMA is probably not for you, as there are better alternatives
- There are great CMA fighters, who are dedicated and train hard
- You need to stay away from bogus instructors.
- Most MMA/Thai/Boxers are better fighters than most TMA. Probalbly are most hockey/football players better fighters too.
- Keep it real. Most people will never be very good CMA fighters.

So I support your claims that gyms doing mostly forms are not very effective for fighting, I disagree that it is impossible to find the ‘real’ MA within the techniques performed in a form, and I do agree (sadly) that there is far too much nonsense in the world.

As previously stated, I find it the most fun doing CMA, and I acknowledge I would probably be better at fighting doing MMA or other combat sport. In the end, the most brutal mofo wins on the street anyway, who have no regard for neither his or your safety and well-being.

Ps: I really don’t like modern wu-shu.