The Chain Punch...

[Red Rum]

Its true though, to suggest its hard to rely on your eyes in a fight is as idiotic as it gets.
Clubs like these should be shut down and named and shamed for the mcdojos that they are.

The problem is the students that go cant see it. They think their place is special and that everyone else either doesnt understand or isnt being taught properly.
Most never find out that they are at a mcdojo because they beleive so strongly in what they are doing that they cant question it any more. Which is the sure fire signal that its a mcdojo.
To say that its hard to rely on your eyes in a real fight is the single most ridiculous statement ive read on this site bar none.
His posts in general smack of mcdojo cult like brainwashing which is clearly obvious to everyone else i expect but not to him because he is the one stuck in it.

Ghost, you are a complete numpty.
You really think that whilst you are in a guillotine or a choke you can see your opponent?
You think that whilst you are in a Muay Thai clinch or boxers clinch you can see what your opponent is doing?

Do you think that if you spar with a fast boxer you will see any of his punches coming?

Any EXPERIENCED fighter (and from your comments, it is obvious that you are not), will tell you that it is rare that they have a chance to see attacks coming and deal with them. Half the time people throw blocks out and then mould their body around it

Anyway, people like you make me sick

[Ghost]

Ghost, you are a complete numpty.
You really think that whilst you are in a guillotine or a choke you can see your opponent?
You think that whilst you are in a Muay Thai clinch or boxers clinch you can see what your opponent is doing?

Do you think that if you spar with a fast boxer you will see any of his punches coming?

Any EXPERIENCED fighter (and from your comments, it is obvious that you are not), will tell you that it is rare that they have a chance to see attacks coming and deal with them. Half the time people throw blocks out and then mould their body around it

Anyway, people like you make me sick

What you know about boxing/thai boxing and clinch work will probably fit on a post it note.
If you think boxers dont use their eyes then where the hell does the conditioned reflex stimulus come from in order to block.
That just destroyed your argument in one sentence.
Job done.

THere is a saying in boxing, if you cant see it, you cant block it. IF you had ANY boxing training you would know the emphasis on sight. Though feeling your opponents movement has some relevance you stated that fighters dont rely on sight. Which is complete crap.

Then there was alot of Kevin Chan, Kevin Chan, Kevin Chan. Is he your leader?

[Guest]

Ghost, you are a complete numpty.
You really think that whilst you are in a guillotine or a choke you can see your opponent?
You think that whilst you are in a Muay Thai clinch or boxers clinch you can see what your opponent is doing?

Do you think that if you spar with a fast boxer you will see any of his punches coming?

Any EXPERIENCED fighter (and from your comments, it is obvious that you are not), will tell you that it is rare that they have a chance to see attacks coming and deal with them. Half the time people throw blocks out and then mould their body around it

Anyway, people like you make me sick

Red Rum, you're just making an idiot of yourself.

Most of the regular guys on here know who Ghost is, you're trying to tell an experienced Muay Thai Fighter and Boxer about his own game, and you are talking a load of nonsese. The guys lives in Thailand and fights out there, you couldn't have picked a worse person to try and argue this point with. Give it up, because its just getting embarassing.

This all compounds my theory that most of what you claim about yourself on here is bullshit, and despite offering you several oppourtunities to prove me wrong, you've come forward with nothing.

And "people like you make me sick"? Get a grip mate, its just an internet forum.

[npk9]

I would like to apologize to the community and the world as a whole on behalf of all the skilled and competent CMA practioners out there. This shit needs to be revamped.

[Ghost]

I would like to apologize to the community and the world as a whole on behalf of all the skilled and competitant CMA practioners out there. This shit needs to be revamped.

Its really ok, i dont think anyone person can represent the whole community anyway, i think most of us take people as they come and dont see it as a reflection on CMA.

Thanks to mike and mike for their comments.

Red Rum if you would like a technical debate on the muay thai clinch go for it, you will lose.

[npk9]

I see this being a trend with CMA specifically more so with WC. Now I know that it happens with any style but maybe its just the fact that I've been in CMA that I'm exposed to it more? I don't know. I just know its not helping the anyone let alone CMA.

[Red Rum]

Its really ok, i dont think anyone person can represent the whole community anyway, i think most of us take people as they come and dont see it as a reflection on CMA.
Thanks to mike and mike for their comments.
Red Rum if you would like a technical debate on the muay thai clinch go for it, you will lose.

Very easily. Just because a few Americans like Mike etc 'know who you are'. Who gives a flying f**k? I have been training MT for a long time, admittedly boxing not so long. Yet I know boxers who have trained for two years being a whole lot more knowledgable than guys who have trained for twenty years.

But even in the limited time I have trained boxing, it is very apparent that boxing clinches make seeing what your opponent is doing difficult.

I am stunned that your so called vast experience in boxing makes you think that you can see everything your opponent is doing when you are in a clinch

I never said that boxers do not use their eyes - re-read my post you twat.
I have said repeatedly that reliance on your eyes all the way through a fight is foolish, especially when it comes to clinches

Of course boxers will use their eyes to start with, but watch any boxing clinch (even a newbie would understand this) and see which direction the boxers eyes are.

In grappling, I would ask you to do the same. If you are telling me that two fighters can see everything their opponent is doing, then you are not what you say you are.

[Red Rum]

Its really ok, i dont think anyone person can represent the whole community anyway, i think most of us take people as they come and dont see it as a reflection on CMA.
Thanks to mike and mike for their comments.
Red Rum if you would like a technical debate on the muay thai clinch go for it, you will lose.

Very easily. Just because a few Americans like Mike etc 'know who you are'. Who gives a flying f**k? I have been training MT for a long time, admittedly boxing not so long. Yet I know boxers who have trained for two years being a whole lot more knowledgable than guys who have trained for twenty years.

But even in the limited time I have trained boxing, it is very apparent that boxing clinches make seeing what your opponent is doing difficult.

I am stunned that your so called vast experience in boxing makes you think that you can see everything your opponent is doing when you are in a clinch

I never said that boxers do not use their eyes - re-read my post you twat.
I have said repeatedly that reliance on your eyes all the way through a fight is foolish, especially when it comes to clinches

Of course boxers will use their eyes to start with, but watch any boxing clinch (even a newbie would understand this) and see which direction the boxers eyes are.

In grappling, I would ask you to do the same. If you are telling me that two fighters can see everything their opponent is doing, then you are not what you say you are.

[Red Rum]

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://galleries.photographers.co.uk/data/531/100Muay_Thai_Boxers-med.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footwork_(martial_arts)&h=600&w=559&sz=44&hl=en&start=4&tbnid=vPBflWYjcZr13M:&tbnh=135&tbnw=126&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dboxing%2Bclinch%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://kohtao-community.com/images/Advert/thaiboxing-clinch.jpg&imgrefurl=http://kohtao-community.com/index.php%3Fmodule%3Dhtmlpages%26func%3Ddisplay%26pid%3D15&h=280&w=350&sz=20&hl=en&start=19&tbnid=8uhh43bbIvTGJM:&tbnh=96&tbnw=120&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dboxing%2Bclinch%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den

[Ghost]

Sensitivity is incredibly important in a fight. If you have ever been in a fight (and I'm not judging you if you haven't), most of the time it is hard to rely on your eyes. I

I cant really make it much clearer than that.

Ive not really seen many fights where the fighers didnt rely on their eyes.
Normally i would have let a post like this slide. But i didnt due to the fountain of nonsense that you have spouted in this thread. So im picking on the stupidest thing you said to make you look silly. But you seem to be doing it all by yourself.
Regarding clinch and muay thai look up peripheral vision. If you cant see your opponent most of the time in the clinch then you either have your eyes shut or your opponent is dominating you.

[Liberty]

Mike, the guy has a point. I mean, there are dozens of youtube clips alone wherein, in those mock demos, the person being "attacked" (the lackey), shuts his eyes as he freaks out, in response to his "deadly" partners "attacks."

I will say, though, that in the dozen or two real life encounters I've been in, in my own past the only time I've had to rely on feeling, flow, or whatever has been in clinches. Those times wherein an attack was so fast I was not able to see a strike here and there; any "feeling" had to do with reacting to the feeling of a strike - ouch! - reacting to that, adjusting in response to it, and so on, when it was simply unavoidable.

What a wake up call it must've been for the late Bruce Lee, for example, that as amazing a martial artist as he truly was, that after all his sensitivity training, after all his Chi Sau, all his hours upon hours of training fanatically blindfolded, he in the end realized "it didn't feel right!," abandoning it altogether.

Seems to me way too many Wing Chun practitioners fall prey to believing the Chi Sau/Trapping hype. That, in too many ways the art is simply outdated. As if the art, for far too many of it's practitioners is some sort of safe chess game between two intellctuals at a park table on a Saturday afternoon. With the same egos, the same sense of false superiority resulting therefrom.

Sorry for the quote Mike, but...

"In memory of a once fluid man, crammed and distorted by the classical mess."

[Red Rum]

Now that everyone seems to have calmed down...

Ghost - my contention was that you can't always rely on your eyes in a fight. I did not say you do not use your eyes in a fight. Of course you do.
Peripheral vision is used, but try using it when your opponent gets you in a headlock guillotine, tight clinch, suplex etc. If you are adamant that you can see every part of your opponent (every limb) then I will concede.

How many full contact (including UFC) fights have you seen where a person loses sight of his opponent? Of course, when two opponents are squaring off and approaching each other you can see each other clearly. But would an average guy see a kick coming in? Or a fast punch coming in? No
The idea of wing chun sensitivity is what you can't see occur in a fight allows you to feel it instead.

Liberty - I stated quite clearly that the concept of sensitivity is not a new one and that BJJ guys, MT guys and even boxers use it in one way or the other. The point was that in wing chun we develop it through chi sao. And you are dead right - many people think that chi sao is the ultimate fighting tool. It is a device, yes, which comes in handy (any sensitivity training would), but I would rather have a hard punch!

Mike, you joke about clinchwork, but in Kamon we use more sensitivity than sight to nullify an opponents attacks. I am never going to keep up with a good boxer in a clinch and neither will a lot of wing chun guys, just by using sight alone and trying to block. Yet relaxing and sticking to an opponent in a clinch (including experienced boxers) does work.

Mike, I will tell you that you will not always see knives in fights. A guy got stabbed in a fight at my local KFC and didn't even know it til he got home
And before people kick off, I am not saying that you will never see a knife, only that Mike seems to think that he will always see a knife attack coming.

They SEE where they need to move. If you like, come over to my gym and I'll show you how it works. (couldn't resist) Oh so now you are throwing a challenge out? Brilliantly mature.

[peppi]

People who have tried to endlessly chain punch their opponent to death often end up breaking their hands on the top, side and back of the head when the opponent turns away

If they do not know the Chum Kiu concept yes

The chain punch is not, in my experience, a knock out technique – the hand tools of Boxing are king in this arena.

Wong Shun Leung proved exactly the opposite.

I do think it has merits when used correctly in the right context, I do also think however that this technique has perhaps enjoyed a little too much exposure and kudos.

Totally agree

Chain punching is NOT the attacking method of Wing Chun, the system heavily relies on the usage of the open hand

[Red Rum]

If they do not know the Chum Kiu concept yes

Wong Shun Leung proved exactly the opposite.

Totally agree

Chain punching is NOT the attacking method of Wing Chun, the system heavily relies on the usage of the open hand

Brilliantly put. There is much over emphasis of chain punching in wing chun. I consider it as a warm up drill as opposed to a successful attack

Boxing is definately the king of punching - however, the close quarter wing chun punch is a very handy attack as it does not need leverage to work. Boxing requires a degree of shoulder movement and hip movement to do well. In clinch situations where someone has wrapped you up, it is hard to pull those kind of punches off. Therefore the short relaxed power of a wing chun punch can be very useful in those situations

[Garland]

You can throw a series of straights down the centerline a'la Wing Chun chain punching...and basically Blitz somebody...
it IS an effective attack. Jesus, anyone who watched Vitor Belfort rush Vanderlei Silva can see that!

Both tools have their place in a fight... imho boxing is a great way to create openings for trapping and employing the straight blast/chain punch. Jesus...I remember even being able to pull off a lop sao a few times when I was sparring for muay thai...and it worked GREAT to help facillitate clinch range and help set up knees and even some filipino style throws or foot traps/sweeps.