Boxing-Style Wing Chun.

[Grixti]

Recently my thoughts have been centred on what Martial Art would be perfect for me to train and commit my life to. I am only 18 but feel that I have reached a state of mind that will enable me to commit to a style for a long time.

At the moment I am studying Wing Chun and have been doing so for around half a year. During my training I have also been doing a massive amount of research into other popular Martial Arts.

I know I have a very limited view on Wing Chun due to the short amount of time I have been practicing it, and there’s only so much you can learn about other arts by reading and watching them, but I have had an idea on what would make a very effective martial art or way of training, so read my thoughts and tell me what you think:


My Theory:
There are a lot of things about my Wing Chun training that I have found helpful and effective, both in theory and applicability in a real fight. My main problem with the art is that although the theory seems flawless it lacks in actually applying the moves with power and under pressure like in boxing styles.

The thing I like about Martial Arts is their complexity and the fact that it takes many years to know and master the moves. Wing Chun considers the entire body as a weapon and teaches a number of attacks that aren’t found in Boxing and Kickboxing styles. In Boxing it takes much less time to learn the moves but most of the work goes into increasing you speed and power (This may not be totally correct so correct me if I’m wrong). The main way we can divide Boxing from other Martial arts is the fact that Boxing styles are created for sports purposes whereas Martial arts have a lot of moves that would not be allowed inside a ring.

With this in mind, wouldn’t the perfect Martial Art and way of training be a complex and complete art practiced like boxing training? An art that covers the whole body as a weapon and addresses real life situations (like most Martial Arts). But then spends a lot of time actually practicing the moves with power and under pressure with a focus on conditioning.

An example of this idea could be doing some freestyle sparring-like techniques on someone holding pads like you see in Muay Thai. Attacking the one holding the pads with combinations from the style (say Wing Chun), for a certain amount of time with particular focus on speed, power and conditioning.

My overall point is that the more you actually apply a technique with power and under pressure, the more likely it will be effective in a real life street confrontation. This is where boxing styles excel. So if we could combine a complete Martial Art system with the same type of training in mind, wouldn’t this be a great way to train to become an effective fighter?


I have lots of views on this subject so pick apart my theory and let’s debate the idea!

Peace.

[Red Rum]

Recently my thoughts have been centred on what Martial Art would be perfect for me to train and commit my life to. I am only 18 but feel that I have reached a state of mind that will enable me to commit to a style for a long time.

At the moment I am studying Wing Chun and have been doing so for around half a year. During my training I have also been doing a massive amount of research into other popular Martial Arts.

I know I have a very limited view on Wing Chun due to the short amount of time I have been practicing it, and there’s only so much you can learn about other arts by reading and watching them, but I have had an idea on what would make a very effective martial art or way of training, so read my thoughts and tell me what you think:


My Theory:
There are a lot of things about my Wing Chun training that I have found helpful and effective, both in theory and applicability in a real fight. My main problem with the art is that although the theory seems flawless it lacks in actually applying the moves with power and under pressure like in boxing styles.

The thing I like about Martial Arts is their complexity and the fact that it takes many years to know and master the moves. Wing Chun considers the entire body as a weapon and teaches a number of attacks that aren’t found in Boxing and Kickboxing styles. In Boxing it takes much less time to learn the moves but most of the work goes into increasing you speed and power (This may not be totally correct so correct me if I’m wrong). The main way we can divide Boxing from other Martial arts is the fact that Boxing styles are created for sports purposes whereas Martial arts have a lot of moves that would not be allowed inside a ring.

With this in mind, wouldn’t the perfect Martial Art and way of training be a complex and complete art practiced like boxing training? An art that covers the whole body as a weapon and addresses real life situations (like most Martial Arts). But then spends a lot of time actually practicing the moves with power and under pressure with a focus on conditioning.

An example of this idea could be doing some freestyle sparring-like techniques on someone holding pads like you see in Muay Thai. Attacking the one holding the pads with combinations from the style (say Wing Chun), for a certain amount of time with particular focus on speed, power and conditioning.

My overall point is that the more you actually apply a technique with power and under pressure, the more likely it will be effective in a real life street confrontation. This is where boxing styles excel. So if we could combine a complete Martial Art system with the same type of training in mind, wouldn’t this be a great way to train to become an effective fighter?


I have lots of views on this subject so pick apart my theory and let’s debate the idea!

Peace.

Grixti, who on earth are you training under in Kamon?
In the Kamon classes I train at, we train a variety of moves (under presure). This includes working from a clinch, being pounded on by an attacker and being 'teased' by long range attacks

Very recently, Master Chan has changed the grading syllabus to include sparring which involves less wing chun orientated movements like hooks, jabs, uppercutts, etc

The reason why people choose to train something like wing chun is because they are looking for something other than getting in a ring and dkuing it out. Whether that is because they are too old, not interested in getting hit in the head every night, or because they can't commit to a daily training regime is unknown. Also in boxing and many other arts, you are 'sized up' according to weight etc. In this day and age people understand that when you go out onto the street, you cannot ask to be put up against someone your own weight

It doesn't mean that a good lightweight boxer won't be able to knockout a heavyweight. Only that for every punch the heavyweight throws, the lightweight has to throw 6 punches to keep up. In Kamon, size and strength don't matter. I weight three times as much as Master Chan and he will neutralize me in a heartbeat. Yet, if I sparred with him, even though he is damn good, it would just be a complete mismatch

My advice to you Grixti would be to go and have a look at the Wednesday Covent Garden class. It is intermediate - advanced level and you will see and understadn where your current training is taking you

[Ghost]

Grixti, who on earth are you training under in Kamon?
In the Kamon classes I train at, we train a variety of moves (under presure). This includes working from a clinch, being pounded on by an attacker and being 'teased' by long range attacks

Very recently, Master Chan has changed the grading syllabus to include sparring which involves less wing chun orientated movements like hooks, jabs, uppercutts, etc

The reason why people choose to train something like wing chun is because they are looking for something other than getting in a ring and dkuing it out. Whether that is because they are too old, not interested in getting hit in the head every night, or because they can't commit to a daily training regime is unknown. Also in boxing and many other arts, you are 'sized up' according to weight etc. In this day and age people understand that when you go out onto the street, you cannot ask to be put up against someone your own weight

It doesn't mean that a good lightweight boxer won't be able to knockout a heavyweight. Only that for every punch the heavyweight throws, the lightweight has to throw 6 punches to keep up. In Kamon, size and strength don't matter. I weight three times as much as Master Chan and he will neutralize me in a heartbeat. Yet, if I sparred with him, even though he is damn good, it would just be a complete mismatch

My advice to you Grixti would be to go and have a look at the Wednesday Covent Garden class. It is intermediate - advanced level and you will see and understadn where your current training is taking you

Yeah but hes spot on, you dont compete and that leaves out the pressure and edge you get at something like a boxing gym, like how you got smashed to bits when you went boxing.

Grixti, good post good question.
my advice to you is to take 2 martial arts.
1. take up JKD, great system, well rounded.
2. take up boxing or MT at proper competitive gym this will give you that pressure you are looking for.

These 2 systems mix well, though MT and boxing are part of JKD you are going to get to train specifically in those areas in the combat sport way. You cant do that at a non competitive gym.
Have a look at some posts by Michael Wright at the difference he found when he started doing boxing at a competitive boxing gym.
Boxing or MT at a real gym will compliment JKD very nicely.

[Ghost]

Not to mention that this is one of the biggest frauds ever foisted on the martial arts world...

yeah i agree, comments like that show a lack of REAL sparring. imo.

[Ghost]

Unless you're talking about weapons, size and strength always matter. Even with most weapons, they matter. A fast moving bullet is a hell of an equalizer, but beyond that, advantages in attributes (be it size strength, endurance, speed, or whatever) are just that - advantages.

no doubt about that, you only need to spar hard against larger opponents to see the difference.

[Grixti]

Grixti, who on earth are you training under in Kamon?
In the Kamon classes I train at, we train a variety of moves (under pressure). This includes working from a clinch, being pounded on by an attacker and being 'teased' by long range attacks

Well this is what we do: Yes we train a variety of moves, but "under pressure" is a bit of a stretch; more like if someone throws a hook, this is a way to block it and then follow up with this. Obviously we do many different types of attack but they lack any kind of freestyle or sparring element.

Very recently, Master Chan has changed the grading syllabus to include sparring which involves less wing chun orientated movements like hooks, jabs, uppercutts, etc

Yes, and i think this is a good idea. I actually went to the sparring seminar and hit a few pads with you Red Rum. And doing light sparring made me realise that its a great way to train for any kind of fight - sport or street - because theres a number of different possible attacks that may come and you have to train your reflexes to dodge the attacks and counter, under a bit more pressure than when you know a particular attack is coming in. This is something that seems to be left out a bit in low level Wing Chun at Kamon. Maybe you do more of that when you are a higher sash but why wait? Why cant you spar Wing Chun?

The reason why people choose to train something like wing chun is because they are looking for something other than getting in a ring and dkuing it out. Whether that is because they are too old, not interested in getting hit in the head every night, or because they can't commit to a daily training regime is unknown.

Im not saying we have to get "hit in the head every night", i think my theory just comes down to 2 ideas:

1. We should practice sparring Wing Chun more, rather than countering hits that we know are going to come the whole time.

2. We should do more work on applying the techniques with power to increase our speed and strength.

Take Muay Thai for example. I have read on this forum that they do a lot of light sparring (no heads being smashed in) but save the speed and power work for someone who is totally padded up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXH_arNuLS8

Couldnt we do something like this but with Wing Chun?

Also in boxing and many other arts, you are 'sized up' according to weight etc. In this day and age people understand that when you go out onto the street, you cannot ask to be put up against someone your own weight

I dont really see what this has to do with my argument. If people this day and age understand that you cant just fight people your size on the street (obviously) surely this is more reason to train in sparring and training your speed and power. Im not saying we should turn Wing Chun into boxing. We can still keep all the Wing Chun theories that MAY enable us to beat a larger fighter, but practice them more on pads and under pressure to make those moves even more effective.

It doesn't mean that a good lightweight boxer won't be able to knockout a heavyweight. Only that for every punch the heavyweight throws, the lightweight has to throw 6 punches to keep up. In Kamon, size and strength don't matter. I weight three times as much as Master Chan and he will neutralize me in a heartbeat. Yet, if I sparred with him, even though he is damn good, it would just be a complete mismatch

"In Kamon size and strength dont matter". I dont know about that. Obviously the theory of Wing Chun may enable a mismatched fight to be less... mismatched, but if a 50KG women fights a man three times her weight, she may deflect a few of his punches but when it comes to elbowing him in the head, it might not do much damage. This is where practicing these moves on pads would come in handy, to get that speed, power, accuracy, whatever so that when the woman hits back she might have more of a chance to stun the guy and run. Do you see what im getting at?

"Yet, if I sparred with him, even though he is damn good, it would just be a complete mismatch" You think you could beat Master Chan in a boxing match then?

My advice to you Grixti would be to go and have a look at the Wednesday Covent Garden class. It is intermediate - advanced level and you will see and understadn where your current training is taking you

I think i might do that. Out of interest, what sash counts as intermediate? I would be interested in seeing exactly that, "where my training is taking me". As i have said in this post, this is an idea/theory from a very limited perspective of the style. But i still think my views are valid. Are any of the things i have suggested - more pad work and freestyle sparring - done in that intermediate class?

Any more views on my idea?

[Liberty]

Not to mention that this is one of the biggest frauds ever foisted on the martial arts world...

Hi Mike. I was wondering, would this "size does/does not matter" be worth exploring further?

My uncle, for example, is a 5th Dan in Judo. He's a short guy and yet I've seen him take on guys bigger, way more muscular who not only had no problem mustering power, etc., but a lack of morality as they attacked - all of which aid in harnessing adrenalin -and yet my uncle was able to clean their clock using only his Judo.

Would you say that was perhaps due to what it appeared - to his having been able to have kept them within a range that nutralized whatever range they were probably effiecient in? Would this be a place/time/range where size perhaps does not matter? If so, would there be other factors?

[Ghost]

yeah Grixti i like the way you are questioning everything, very good my young apprentice.
DAMN IT i want to be the darkside!

"Join us on the dark side Grixti and complete your training under Emporer Brewer. Screw what RedRum thinks....(no thats not right)...search your feelings....you know it to be true, your destiny lies with the dark side"


BUt yeah your analysis was well thought out there, good post.

[Guest]

Not to mention that this is one of the biggest frauds ever foisted on the martial arts world...

Absolutely. The stronger you are the harder you hit, the tighter you clinch, the better you throw, and the more you dominate on the ground. So unless someone has invented a new way of two people fighting (another great fraud in martial arts) then strength matters.

Size also, and that comes in a few forms, it doesn't have to mean bulk. I'm very slim, but at 6ft 1 and long limbed I have great reach with all of my tools (oo-er). That is my size advantage, and it makes a big difference.

Are there exceptions? Of course, but if you teach by exception, especially if you are the exception, then that's misleading people.

[Liberty]

Ran accross this while researching JKD:

"If a boxer can keep a wrestler out of his range, he will
have the advantage. However, if a wrestler can bridge the
gap and maintain his range, he will have the advantage,"

- Larry Hartsell

[Bjjexpertise@be]

Hi Mike. I was wondering, would this "size does/does not matter" be worth exploring further?

My uncle, for example, is a 5th Dan in Judo. He's a short guy and yet I've seen him take on guys bigger, way more muscular who not only had no problem mustering power, etc., but a lack of morality as they attacked - all of which aid in harnessing adrenalin -and yet my uncle was able to clean their clock using only his Judo.

Would you say that was perhaps due to what it appeared - to his having been able to have kept them within a range that nutralized whatever range they were probably effiecient in? Would this be a place/time/range where size perhaps does not matter? If so, would there be other factors?

Technique can most definitely compensate for strength, size and weight. However you cant deny that those qualities are advantages. Strength, size, weight, speed, cardio, technique, and reach are all advantages; extremities in any category can help make up for lack of another category.

People always toss around the idea that strength, size, and weight can be neutralized but you gotta think to yourself, there's a reason there are weightclasses in boxing, wrestling, judo, etc. When the advantage of technique is equal, the other advantages become a lot more apparent, strength, size, speed, all that. BJ Penn himself said that strength was the greatest equalizer against technique.

[Liberty]

Technique can most definitely compensate for strength, size and weight. However you cant deny that those qualities are advantages. Strength, size, weight, speed, cardio, technique, and reach are all advantages; extremities in any category can help make up for lack of another category.

People always toss around the idea that strength, size, and weight can be neutralized but you gotta think to yourself, there's a reason there are weightclasses in boxing, wrestling, judo, etc. When the advantage of technique is equal, the other advantages become a lot more apparent, strength, size, speed, all that. BJ Penn himself said that strength was the greatest equalizer against technique.

Good points. Brock Lesnar's recent defeat, for example.

By the way, anyone know of a way to verify this next guy's military boxing record:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/ray.d8/article12.html

James DeMile: ...I was a heavyweight boxer in the Air Force. Over a four year period I had over a hundred fights and never lost one. I had a very big ego and perceived myself as the toughtest man alive. I was 5ft 10inches and weighted 225. I could knock a man out with either hand. Then I met a small 135 lb 5 ft 7 kid who believed his martial arts could beat anyone. I decided to explain the reality of fighting to him and proceded to show him what street fighting was all about. Needless to say I learned humility in about 5 seconds. He not only stopped me cold, but tied me up in such a way that he could hit me at will and the only thing I could do about it was... nothing. Later I reviewed all my previous skills, including boxing and threw all of it out as it was impractical against Bruce's skills.

[fire cobra]

There are techniques in most decent traditional martial arts that let smaller lighter weight people with less strength win out againt the strong guys,i am a small guy and have sparred all sizes and shapes over the last 30 odd years and know what i can and cant apply against the bigger lads(heavys) as a example non of the 20 stone plus over 6 foot guys can get out of my neck clinch or stop me pulling there head down, this comes from training and sparring with them of course,for example in Muay Thai i wouldnt use the modern way of standing in front of your opponent in range and matching strength and speed,thats why we have tricks in Muay Thai,a trick for every fighter against every other fighter,and i have seen the same things in other good trad martial arts,the arts work because they have been worked for years,the question is can we work them? thats up to us and just how far we want to go in keeping it real,off topic a bit sorry!.

[Liberty]

[QUOTE] You have to ask yourself honestly, if training and technique actually negated size and strength, why the need to match people up by size? A 105 pound woman should have no trouble at all fighting a 300 pond man in a BJJ or Judo tournament. But they do, don't they. [QUOTE]

Correct me if I'm wrong ON THIS PART OF YOUR POST, Mike, but I've seen footage of the very first UFCs and they don't have weight categories. As a result, matches are over before they start, if you will. As a result, weight classes were added to improve entertainment, marketability through longer lasting matches due to same weight class, for one. After which, what's left is, "the better man." So, while I basically agree with your post, the above is up for grabs.

[Grixti]

All very clear points Mike. So if size and strength have the advantage when the skill of the fighters is equal this raises the question: Can one reach a level of skill that is so great that it cantr be overcome by the advantages of attributes like size and strength.

This links back to the martial art philosophy-type stuff.

"In Kamon, size and strength dont matter"

Although this statement is a bit broad to be fact it does boil down to the idea of skill having less limits then the attributes we have been talking about(size, speed, strength, reach etc). What i mean by this is that if someone could reach a certain level of skill then these attributes wouldnt matter. There is a limit to strength and speed (look at world records) but is there a limit to skill? What do you guys think?