Tai Chi training

[TTEscrima]

We're often asked some basic questions about Tai Chi training so I thought I'd toss out a few answers to the most often asked questions and invite those of you with an interest to ask a few of your own.

How long should one practice everyday in order to make progress in Tai Chi?

We recommend an absolute minimum of 50 minutes a day for health benefits, however if you want martial benefits as well then the traditional minimum of two hours a day is recommended.

Master Hao Shaoru used to train for more than 10 hours a day, students were required to train 5 hours a day for the first 5 years. Most of the famous internal masters were known to have trained a minimum of 5 hours a day on top of their teaching schedules which often added an additional 5 hours of training to their day.

How long does it take to learn Tai Chi?

Ideally,with persistent practice and under proper guidance one should achieve a basic level of mastery in 3 years. It's unrealistic to expect to build up a solid foundation of any Tai Chi style in less than 3 years. Also note that simply learning the forms which can be accomplished in a few months without understanding the internal requirements amounts to nothing more than learning some relaxation exercises, not true Tai Chi.

These time lines were put forth by Master Gu Liu-Xin when he was an instructor at the Central Guoshu Institute, in Nanjing. The original 5 instructors for the institute were drawn from the winners of the full contact National tournament held in 1928 and more were added from the winners of the 1933 tournament.

[TTEscrima]

Along with "how do I find a good teacher in my area?", "Do I really need to practice that often?" are the two most often asked questions I'm asked in pms, I'll try to cover both of those in this post.

The Chinese say, without an excellent teacher, you will get merely the “skin and hair” of the art, not the “bone and marrow.” So if you want the “marrow” of the art, you must find a good teacher and practice ten thousand days, for great accomplishment".

The classics and the men who made Taiji famous are quite clear on how you gain proficiency in Taiji, To quote Sun Luc Tang "The secret of the Martial arts is Practice, practice, practice".

FIVE-CHARACTERS ANCIENT POEM

"The Principle is without boundaries, but its sources are (even) in (little) ants.

Do not peep at the garden for three years, have one will and focused spirit.

It is necessary to study from a good teacher, and also visit wise friends.

Follow the rules in all respects, and a narrow beam of understanding will appear.

Next level is deeper than the previous one, the meaning within the levels is without boundaries.

Opening (Kai) is linked to Closing (He), Openings (Kai) and Closings (He) pass on from one to another in order.

Sometimes one is guided into victory, and cannot stop practicing even though one wants to.

Time, study and efforts to the utmost, and your skill will grow every day.

If only there is no obstacle, you will suddenly understand Great Void."

Before seeking a teacher, it is important to ask yourself WHY you really want to study Taiji. Is it for health, for a gentle daily exercise, or for martial art ability? Once you've done this you can begin to look for a teacher.

The very first qualification any good Taiji teacher must have is a lineage. That means that the teacher can demonstrate a line of succession that goes back to a recognized Style of Taiji and ultimately, to the founder of that Style. Once you begin to investigate you will discover that there are several common Styles of Taiji.:

The Yang Style, standardized by Yang Ch’eng Fu in the 1920’s, and the derivative “Yang Style Short Form” created by Cheng Man Ch’ing.

The Wu Jian Quan Style, standardized by Wu Jian Quan and Ma Yueh Liang.

The Chen Style, derived from Chen Zhang Xing, with several current lineage holders, among them Chen Xiao Wang and Feng Zhi Chiang.

The Sun Style, established by Sun Lu Tang and standardized by him and his daughter Sun Jian Yun.

Just be aware that in order to glean the genuine health and body-mind development benefits of Taiji Quan, you MUST learn the genuine art from a real teacher. As the Taiji Classic, “Song of the Substance and Function of the Thirteen Forms” says: “If you do not seek carefully (study according to the principles of the Taiji Quan Classics) and examine thoroughly, your time and effort will be spent in vain, and you will have cause to sigh with regret.” That also means that your teacher must be well versed in the Taiji Quan Classics and teach according to the principles in the Classics. That is the only true art of Taiji.

Another common Taiji proverb says:
“One hundred days, small accomplishment, One thousand days, middling accomplishment Ten thousand days, great accomplishment.”

Another crucial matter of instructional skill is a teacher’s ability to address the needs of a wide range of students with varying degrees of physical ability. In the past in China, when Taijiquan was taught primarily as martial art, it was assumed that anyone seeking Taiji instruction already had a background in martial arts. This is an incredibly important point, not a single recognized master of Taiji or any of the Internal arts started with Taiji or any other internal art, nor did they study ANY single art exclusively!! In fact cross training in other arts was SO common that Taiji, Baqua and Xing Yi are commonly and INACCURATELY described as the internal arts to this day. This misunderstanding was caused by a group of teachers who decided since their arts shared similar principles yet specialized in particular points that the students would benefit from crosstraining in these styles. These schools were Cheng Ting Hau's Baqua School, Liu de Guan's Taiji school and the Hsin Yi schools.of Li Cun Yi' and Lui Wei Xiang'. They called their Brotherhood Nei Jia Quan (Internal Family boxing.) thus leading to people grouping the three arts together as "internal" confusing outsiders into believing they were the only 3 internal styles. As this clearly illustrates, the idea of internal stylist training only one Martial art is absurd! This is one of the warning signs you are talking to someone with little or no knowledge of the Internal arts so if you encounter this you are not on the right track in finding a knowledgeable person to learn from.

Each “Style” of Taijiquan, has certain advantages and disadvantages. They were created by martial artists of different body types and varying abilities. Each of them was designed to meet certain requirements for development of physical conditioning and combat skills. This means there IS NO best or most legitimate style or teacher. However, you may occasionally meet a teacher who insists his style is the “only real” style or the “best” style or the most legitimate. If a prospective teacher or their students insist you follow every form he teaches like a robot, or worse claims that their version is the most legitimate you would do best to look elsewhere for instruction and knowledge.

While it is true that in the beginning, students need to get a sound foundation and structure and that temporarily entails mimicking every detail of the teacher’s form. However, once a student has mastered the basics, the student must evolve to discovering their own optimal “flavor” of the form, which suits their particular physical abilities and temperament. Much like playing music and following a musical score, the student will practice the genuine “form,” but their “flavor” or personal interpretation depends upon their age, body type, temperament, etc.

Beware people who belittle lineage and the study of the classics for without those two things your training will surely be of no use. Take for example Chen Xin's famous book on boxing "Illustrated Explanations of Chen Family Taijiquan" (Chen Shi Taijiquan Tushuo). Chen Xin spent 12 years writing it by hand, in it he expounded upon the changes between Yin and Yang, the meridian theory was explained using physiological points and veins; the applications of all postures were also explained while indicating the key points for beginners. "Illustrated Explanations of Chen Family Taijiquan" was the fruit of many years' of his painstaking work and the most systematic and complete summary of Chen style Taijiquan ever written, clearly he considered this work extremely important for on his death bed he gave these instructions to his nephew Chen Chunyuan "this is the fruit of my whole life, publish it and give to those who deserve it, otherwise burn it, be sure not to give it to ignorant and presumptuous people!".

[Tom Yum]

Thanks for that informative post!

give to those who deserve it, otherwise burn it, be sure not to give it to ignorant and presumptuous people!".

Sounds like good guidelines for friendship too

[ggg214]

thanks for TTEscrima!
this is a good article for those who doesn't know much about taiji and want to start their training.
i totally agree that without basic 2 hours per day's training, no one can gain some taiji kung fu in less than 3 or 5 years. as i have been told, when my master learnt taiji from his teacher, every morning at 4 o'clork, he have started his training in front of his teacher's door, and it lasted at least the whole morning.
then about cross training, there is a traddition to exchange master's tudi (accepted student) with other martial art masters. and some teacher himself have trained other martial art, so in his teaching, he gives his students other martial arts' special training.as my master, he is also good at Qi gong and Yi Quan.so in his training, we can get some training from the two arts.
and here, i would like to hear your replay to the question: how to judge a master's level in his martial art!
thanks again

[TTEscrima]

i would like to hear your replay to the question: how to judge a master's level in his martial art!
thanks again

Tim Cartmell who lived and trained in China for many years wrote an excellent piece in Baqua Journal Vol 7 No.1, It's far too long to include here but these are the highlights of the things he stressed to avoid as well as what to look for.

Use common sense! Keep an open mind and a healthy sense of skepticism of what you see and hear, I prefer to feel/experience their skills myself. Watching their students and evaluating their skill is always a good way to see what the teacher is capable of passing to his students.

It's helpful to be aware of the common scams and catch phrases that sound impressive but mean nothing. If someone says they are the first foreigner to be accepted in such and such a lineage it doesn't mean anything! I was the first person in line at the movies last night, does that mean I'm special?

It's also important to realize that foreigners are a status symbol for Martial art teachers in Mainland China, many of them accept any foreigner into the lineage. Even if someone is first it means nothing about their skill in fact it usually means they had enough money to buy their way into the lineage and is in no way a validation of their skills. Usually these people don't put in the prerequisite amount of time which is an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM of 3 years to acquire a basic understanding and any skill.

Beware teachers who use foreign titles in their name that are not from their own culture or those that use “PH.D.” or “Doctor“ as many of these have degrees in fields totally unrelated to the martial arts. It's considered in bad taste and arrogant to refer to yourself as Master, Grand Master, Sifu etc so beware these types as well.

Certificates and “I Love me walls” full of photos are usually signs of fluff as are uniforms and CMA schools run like boot camps.

Look, listen, participate and pay attention to what you feel happen not what you see happen.

[TTEscrima]

Notes on using the Internal arts for self defense

Rooting in combat relates to body state and structure, in order to root one must sink and relax. This is accomplished by tucking your hips forward (outward) as the waist sinks downward while maintaining a vertical spine (coccyx lifted and the anus contracted.) It's not necessary to always be rooted because root isn't used to challenge the force of the opponent, it provides stability and changeability, positioning you to deliver force from the ground. When the center of gravity is attacked, don't try to root (rooting doesn't mean the feet are chained to the ground). You must root with mobility and abandon root when necessary by yielding. Yielding is nonresistance to force, which gives you the ability to put yourself in an advantageous position when attacked. You won't always be in the advantageous position or be able to project more force than your opponent, thus yielding becomes necessary against a stronger opponent or one with a superior position. You can't simply yield, you must yield into a position that places you in position to safely counter attack. If you simply yield without positioning yourself to allow counterattacking, your opponent will overcome your defenses which are not supported by your offense (counterattack).

When attacking (or defending), unified (unbroken) movement of the body and mind is essential. Unitary or unified body is the opposite of segmented or isolated power. Unitary power is always loaded for delivery while segmented movement must reload before delivery. For example, if you are rooted and need to strike you must either push from the ground, shift your weight, or turn your waist to propel the weapon into the target. If caught in a high posture you use the force of gravity to drop, triggering a chain reaction of the of the previously mentioned possibilities. You must also be aware of the body and how the muscles, joints, etc. connect. In order to utilize unified power you will need to cultivate a body state that creates maximum force projection and yet allows for effective yielding, speed and changeability. The goal is the ability to change at any moment. Every punch, kick, step, grapple, escape, etc., must be done in a way that permits changeability. This is achieved through developing and maintaining centeredness of the body for all lines or angles of attack.. Your goal is to protect your own center while destroying your opponent's center. The center is the critical mass where your structure and balance are located. The mind should also be kept clear and free from distraction thus increasing your own ability to attack your opponent's mind through distraction and dissimulation.

[TTEscrima]

It's important to remember that in Martial arts there is no magic, there is no mystery and there are no secrets, the only way to get good is to follow the classics and to work hard every day. Even if you trained with Yang The Invincible himself you will not improve without hard work and deep reflection.

Important Words on Martial Applications

by Chen Changxing

"Important formula says: Hammer (fist) comes from heart (mind). Fist follows Intention, generally one should know himself and the opponent, adapt to changing conditions.

Once heart and Qi emit, four extremities should move, legs rise (move) to a (certain) place, move and turn to a (certain) position, either stick (zhan) and move together (you), connect (lian) and follow (sui), jump (teng) and dodge (shan), turn over (zhe) and leave empty (kong), ward (peng) and roll (lü), push (ji) and press down (na).

Fist strikes within five feet (but) beyond three feet, far do not use elbow, close do not use hand, no matter (if you move) forward, backward, to the left of right, one step one strike, when you meet enemy, catching him is the standard, not showing the shape (of your strike) is the excellence.

Fist method is like military tactics, attack where (he is) not prepared, hit where (he has) no Intention, take advantage of attack and hit, take advantage of hitting and attack, first empty (Xu) and then make solid (Shi), first solid and then make empty, avoid solid and attack empty, take root when you ask for branch, if you meet multiple opponents who surround you, appear strong like a living dragon or tiger, (then) attack one opponent, with a power of big cannon booming straight.

Up, middle and bottom should be handled by one Qi, body, hands and legs (move according to) established practice (like) bound by a rope, hand should not rise empty neither fall empty, the sensitivity of the spirit is completely in agility.

The ancients said: good at moving out and coming back, hardness and softness, moving forward and backward, (when he does) not move, (he is) like a mountain, difficult to know as Yin and Yang, limitless like heaven and earth, full and substantial like a granary, vast like four seas, dazzling like three lights, watching the coming force (to find) opportunity, able to estimate advantages and disadvantages of the enemy, awaiting movement (of the opponent) with stillness, handling stillness with movement, (only if the above conditions are met one) can talk about (real) boxing method.

Important formula says: method of borrowing (opponent's power) is easy, method of advancing is difficult, yet method of advancing is the most principal.

Writings on tactics say: attacking hand should be bold and powerful, do not attack the extremities, facing the opponent take his middle hall (e.g. between the legs), like a tiger grab the upper (part of his body) or grab the lower, similar to eagle or hawk capturing chicken from above; one does not have to hurry in overturning rivers and seas, the most powerful is Red Phoenix Facing Sun; clouds flow in the light of sun and moon heaven meets earth, (only) when (two) martial arts fight one with the other (one) can see weak and strong sides.

Important formula says: taking a step and entering (one) must advance body, (the movement is) real only if body and hands arrive together, in the method there is a formula about where to get it from, (once) you understand this principle, (you will realize) how miraculous it is.

From ancient times there were methods of dodging (shan), advancing (jin), striking (da) and protecting (gu): what is called dodging, what is called advancing, advancing is dodging, dodging is advancing, there is no need seek it far away. What is called striking, what is called protecting, protecting is striking, striking is protecting, just a hand movement.

The ancients said: heart (mind; is) like gunpowder, hands (are) like bullets. A brainwave (sudden inspiration; and) bird will not escape easily. Body (is) like bowstring, hands like arrows. Bowstring sounds and bird falls down (this) shows miraculous (skill of the archer). Rise hands (fast) like flash of lightning, there is no time (even) to close eyes (when) lightning flashes. Strike the enemy like rapid thunder, there is no time to cover ears when thunder strikes.

Move to the left and come from the right, move to the right and come from the left; hands hit from inside of the heart, (then) fall forward. Strength rises from feet, feet rise just like fire does.

(if you want to) advance the left (you should first) enter right, (if you want to) advance the right (you should first) enter left, taking step heel first touches ground, ten toes should grasp ground, steps should be steady, body should be serious and heavy, (when) moving out withdraw hands, when reaching the opponent (hands should) clench (into) fists, upper and lower Qi should all stop, (in) coming out and entering body should dominate; no deficiency, no shortage, no reaching, no leaving. Fist strikes from heart, hands are hastened by body, one extremity moves (and) one hundred (e.g. all) bones follow; once (you) bend (close), whole body also bends; once (you) extend (open), whole body should also extend; extending should be to the limit, bending should be tight. (it is) like loading a cannon, the tighter it is loaded, the more power the explosion has.

Writings on tactics say: no matter (with no restrictions to; if you) strike (using) lifting (ti), pressing (an), attacking (ji), pounding (chong), arms (bo), elbows (zhou), hips (kua), legs (tui), head (tou), hands (shou), (hit) high (gao), low (di), along (shun), horizontally (heng), with step forward (jinbu), with step backward (tuibu), borrowing Qi (jieqi), stopping Qi (jieqi) as well as with hundreds methods of striking up and down, generally (speaking) (all body should form) one coherent whole (literally - be penetrated by one Qi).

Moving body first take clever (e.g. favorable) place (position), this is called important formula of tactics. Joints of bones should be adjusted (dui), otherwise there is no strength. Hands should grasp with agility, otherwise (situation may) change (unexpectedly) (literally - change will be born). Hands should move (issue) fast, otherwise (they will be) delayed. Be ferocious when striking, otherwise (the strike is) of no benefit. Feet and hands must be alive, otherwise (one will) face danger. Cherish perfectly intentions (cunxin), otherwise (you will be) fooled.

Issuing with body: should be fierce and courageous like raising eagle, (in) rude and brave (fashion), quick-wits and wisdom (should be) linked. Do not fear (and) hesitate; like Guan at Baima, Zhao at Changban (ann.1), awe-inspiring with invincible might, breaking waves, in stillness like a mountain, in movement like a thunder.

Important formula says: make sure to examine the coming movement of the opponent, (how he) kicks with legs and advances with head, strikes with fists and spread (his) arms, step forward with (your) side to the opponent, (first) bend body (then) rise and hit.

When leg arrives (e.g. opponent kicks) lift your knee, if fist arrives move it aside (bo) with elbow, attack horizontally (heng) (if the opponent strikes) straight (shun), ward off (peng) and press down (ya) a horizontal (attack), receive (the attack) coming from the left with (your) right, meet (the attack) coming from the right with (your) left, on long distance use hand, on short distance use elbow, on long distance kick, on short distance add (use) knee.

(if one wants to) get upper hand in fighting, look around and examine the shape of ground (around you), hands must be fast (ji), feet light (qing), examine the (opponent's) movements like a cat, heart (mind) must be in order and clear, (when) body and hands arrive (at the target) together (this is) the beginning of success, if hands arrive and the body does not (then this is) striking without excellence. If hands arrive and body also arrives (at the same time), then defeating enemy is like smashing a weed.

Writings on tactics say: (those) good at fighting, first look at (the opponent's) footwork and (only) then strike with hands. High strike throat, low strike groin. Left and right ribs as well as center (line). (While) advancing striking (on the distance of) one zhang (e.g. 3.33m) is not considered far, striking in close range is within one inch.

Important formula says: practice as if there was an enemy in front of you, when facing enemy although there is opponent, (but fight) as if there was nobody. If a hand comes in front of your face do not look at it, if elbow comes in front of your chest do not look at it. When hands rise (qi) feet should fall (luo), when feet fall hands should rise.

Heart (xin; mind) must take the lead, Intention (yi) must conquer the opponent, body must attack him, steps must pass through him, head must look up (yang), chest must be present (xian), waist must be upright (shu), Dantian must must move (yun), (body) from feet to nape must be one coherent whole.

Writings on tactics say: those terrified will never achieve victory. Those who cannot examine situation will never protect (themselves).

Moving first (e.g. before the opponent) is called master, moving later (e.g. after the opponent) is called younger brother, teach to advance do not teach to retreat. Bold but cautious, secrets of movements and applications, everything is simply in one heart (mind). One moves into two energies (qi), transmits to three joints (jie), appears in four extremities (shao), unites in five elements (wuxing). Practice all the time, move and transform everyday, it is difficult at the beginning (but) becomes natural after a long time. Philosophy of fist art ends here."

[ltindiandaeng]

Hello TTEscrima and everyone.I have a few questions so please forgive me if this is too long of a posting.The first question is do you thyink tai chi is the best martial art for older people.I myself am getting on and also I have several injuries which now make it difficult or impossible to do things I could do when I was younger.My knees are pretty bad and I cannot do high kicks,though really I never did find them too useful.My students are mostly rice farmers who,as a result of years of crouching down in wet rice paddies,all have stiff painful joints and arthritis.They are mostly strong,and I can still despite my age lift as much weight as I did when I was 30,but it is just much more painful now after I do.

Also,in Thailand there are many many tai chi instructors and they give free tai chi lessons all over,but they are all the kind just for health.Are there any instructors around Chiang Mai or Nakhon Sawan that can teach good self defense too.

Thank you for your patience.

[TTEscrima]

Hello TTEscrima and everyone.I have a few questions so please forgive me if this is too long of a posting.The first question is do you thyink tai chi is the best martial art for older people.I myself am getting on and also I have several injuries which now make it difficult or impossible to do things I could do when I was younger.My knees are pretty bad and I cannot do high kicks,though really I never did find them too useful.My students are mostly rice farmers who,as a result of years of crouching down in wet rice paddies,all have stiff painful joints and arthritis.They are mostly strong,and I can still despite my age lift as much weight as I did when I was 30,but it is just much more painful now after I do.

Also,in Thailand there are many many tai chi instructors and they give free tai chi lessons all over,but they are all the kind just for health.Are there any instructors around Chiang Mai or Nakhon Sawan that can teach good self defense too.

Thank you for your patience.

I'm not a fan of saying any martial art is best for anything or anyone. ALL martial arts require you to be able to put the hurt on an opponent and none of them can do so without speed, power, flexibility, timing and the courage to put them to use. If people already have some martial skills then Tai Chi can be a good way to hone your skills and add a few more but Tai Chi was never intended as a stand alone art. Also Tai Chi was/IS a Martial art and all the health benefits are side effects of the martial training, if you don't do the martial training you can't expect the health benefits Tai Chi is renowned for.

[ltindiandaeng]

Thank you for your answer.I asked people here and they tell me there is a monk not too far from here who is from Yunnan and does a very effective form of tai chi that is also good for health.Only thing is he is very old and my friend is not sure he teaches tai chi combat style anymore,or any tai chi for that matter.As for the strictly health benefits,my daughter is a yoga instructor and she claims,naturally,that this is more healthful than tai chi.Only thing is if I got in morning sunshine position or whatever it is I think I would have to go to intensive care.

[TTEscrima]

Thank you for your answer.I asked people here and they tell me there is a monk not too far from here who is from Yunnan and does a very effective form of tai chi that is also good for health.Only thing is he is very old and my friend is not sure he teaches tai chi combat style anymore,or any tai chi for that matter.As for the strictly health benefits,my daughter is a yoga instructor and she claims,naturally,that this is more healthful than tai chi.Only thing is if I got in morning sunshine position or whatever it is I think I would have to go to intensive care.

I'd go the extra mile and check with the monk myself, showing you're willing to put forth the effort is the best way to get a teachers attention, many quit teaching because most people won't put in the work and the teacher would rather see the art die than live on as a piss poor reflection of the original.

It takes quite a bit of work to teach someone the internal arts and wasting two years of their life only to have someone quit before grasping the basics is why many of the best teachers have quit leaving the field full of frauds who produce crappy students. Halfassed students are as much to blame for the demise of the internal arts as the fake teachers, because teachers only have so much time to teach and when they waste it on halfassed students it takes time from people who could have carried the art on in this generation.

Also be aware that Tai Chi is a folk art not a temple art, that's not to say a monk won't know Tai Chi by any means but beware the common fallacy that people who are from the country of origin or trained there are better than those who never lived or trained in the country the art originated from. Guru Dan has never been to the PI but he certainly knows his FMA's.

[jubaji]

It's wierd. It almost seems as if some of these posts are speaking directly about me!


(and as if someone is being a real D-bag about it)






































(But that's ok, 'cause he's got me on 'ignore')

[TTEscrima]

Ma Baoguo is a master of Hebei Xingyi, old Chen style Taiji and Taoist qigoing, a practitioner since the age of six.

The three big facets of Taiji

"Morality," says master Ma, is the first facet of Taijiquan "You have to be intelligent and clever to practice Taiji. Taiji also teaches you how to adapt to nature, along the old Taoist lines of ziran, following the natural flow. You can use Taiji in battle. A business-man can use it for his battles,a politician can use it in his, an everyday person can use it to battle their stress and ill-health.

Taiji is based on the Taodejing, says Ma. "If you want to study good Taiji, you first have to study the Taodejing." This is the old Taoist classic that forms the basis of strategy and healing in China. Water is the base of everything - it seems very soft, and it flows, but it can be very strong.

Morality is the first facet; health the second. "To practice good Taiji, you have to practice qigong. "To practice Taiji, you have to have a good," he thumps his own chest, "body".

Ma, like all other real internal arts masters, emphasizes that you need to get your body in shape first, then learn to fight. Without good health, you'll never be able to really learn the martial arts. If you are soft you can keep on fighting, but if you are tense, you will be unable to do it for more than a very short time before you have spent both your mind, body and energy.

All the internal arts are based around the principle of fighting with jing, the refined version of qi, which takes a long time to create, but once you have it you have it till your old age. There are however many physical components to this as well; the old saying is that in the internal arts, you fight behind a curtain - the curtain being your skin. Hence, your opponent can't see what you're doing.

You can become very good in combat, if you have chanzijing (Spiral force) you have power you can use everywhere, everywhere on your body can punch.

[ltindiandaeng]

Thank you.I think you are right about some of the best teachers and fighters in a martial art not being from the country where the art is from.Many of the best muay thaii fighters here are from Burma and Cambodia.But you made me think that perhaps it would be unfair to ask monk for training.He is apparently from what I am told very old and not in good health,and it is quite a distance to travel and some days I have commitments on farm or in my own school,and it would be difficult to devote the neccessary time to learn such a difficult art,as you say.Plus the monk may rightly figure I am pretty old myself to start learning something that takes so long to learn.

On the subject of monks,there is a wat in pattaya people call the Mad Monks temple.I went there once with an American guy with one of the monks who was known,but not to his face,as the Gangster Monk.This guy though old had a very impressive pjysique and showed me some moves I have never seen before,which I think were muay boran or something,though the4 monkhad no name for this "system"and just said he learned it in Burma.

[kanik]

Kickass posts dude!