taiji in fight

[ggg214]

how it works or does it work in a fight? i think this is a popular question for taiji's combat usage.
first of all, i don't have any chance to use taiji in a real fight. i think if i fight with some one, i would like to use karate skills more, because it's direct and effective.but does that mean taiji is no use in a fight? if yes, why could the grandmaster such as Yang luchan win as the no beaten fighter?
in recent learning and thinking, i think taiji does not teach us the skills of fight directly, but it teachs us how to build your body more flexible, speed up body's reaction to other's attack, and so on. all in all, taiji trains us more suitable in a fight.
i have read a book written by Xing Yi grandmaster, it said that any movement he made in deffense or offense contains all Pao, Pi, Zuan（炮拳、劈拳、钻拳）....it shows that at high level, skills are not so important, but body building is the only way to make further progress.in chinese, this is called kung fu (功夫). taiji is based on this training, bagua, xing yi is also the same.
therefore, if you want to obtain some direct fighting skills, taiji is not a good choose, but if you want to gain higher level in fighting, taiji is one of good choice.

[TTEscrima]

i have read a book written by Xing Yi grandmaster, it said that any movement he made in deffense or offense contains all Pao, Pi, Zuan（炮拳、劈拳、钻拳）....it shows that at high level, skills are not so important, but body building is the only way to make further progress.in chinese, this is called kung fu (功夫). taiji is based on this training, bagua, xing yi is also the same.
therefore, if you want to obtain some direct fighting skills, taiji is not a good choose, but if you want to gain higher level in fighting, taiji is one of good choice.

Which "Grandmaster's" book on Xing Yi would this be? As for using one art or another in a fight, that's a misnomer. You use the attributes and skills gained from the training in internal arts as opposed to expecting textbook techniques to manifest under stress. Lui Wan Fu the lineage holder of the Lan Shou system said in an interview that although he had practiced martial arts daily for nearly 70 years he had never gotten away with a clean technique in a real fight.

[jubaji]

how it works or does it work in a fight? i think this is a popular question for taiji's combat usage.
first of all, i don't have any chance to use taiji in a real fight. i think if i fight with some one, i would like to use karate skills more, because it's direct and effective.but does that mean taiji is no use in a fight? if yes, why could the grandmaster such as Yang luchan win as the no beaten fighter?
in recent learning and thinking, i think taiji does not teach us the skills of fight directly, but it teachs us how to build your body more flexible, speed up body's reaction to other's attack, and so on. all in all, taiji trains us more suitable in a fight.
i have read a book written by Xing Yi grandmaster, it said that any movement he made in deffense or offense contains all Pao, Pi, Zuan（炮拳、劈拳、钻拳）....it shows that at high level, skills are not so important, but body building is the only way to make further progress.in chinese, this is called kung fu (功夫). taiji is based on this training, bagua, xing yi is also the same.
therefore, if you want to obtain some direct fighting skills, taiji is not a good choose, but if you want to gain higher level in fighting, taiji is one of good choice.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/chinese-martial-arts/28393-taijiquan.html

[kanik]

Tai chi in a fight, looks very different to tai chi in the forms. The forms are (at a basic-intermediate level) usually very pleasing to the eye, but in a fight, it looks very different. the only way I can describe it... Is wierd. I would rely purely on tai chi for a fight, but thats just me personnally. Though note that my first option would be to rely on whatever I end up doing. Because the onyl thing you should rely on in a fight is nothing. Thinking is dangerous. (Note that I do both Tai chi and karate)

[kanik]

therefore, if you want to obtain some direct fighting skills, taiji is not a good choose, but if you want to gain higher level in fighting, taiji is one of good choice.

Ok... sorry for the double post. But I just read the rest of it second time around... and I have to state. Tai chi is great for direct fighting skills.

[ggg214]

Ok... sorry for the double post. But I just read the rest of it second time around... and I have to state. Tai chi is great for direct fighting skills.

direct fighting skills? what kind of skills?

[kanik]

direct fighting skills? what kind of skills?

Well to me, direct fighting skills, are techniques or skills you can use easily in a fight, with desired results, and without years of training. Like a jab from boxing. Yeah? Correct me if I'm wrong though. Anyway, and tai chi has many of these things, I mean one of the applications for practically the first move in the Yang chen fu Tai chi form is a Simultanious block and strike, so out of it, you get a very simple and effective block for one of the most commom strikes in streetfights, a haymaker or hook. And you get a nice clean chop to the throat, which if you didnt want to kill them, could be transferred into a backfist, or a chop to the face. Its easy to apply, and is easy to execute, with great effects, once again, like a jab in boxing. And for even simpler, straighter moves, look in the step back repulse monkey section. A quick fingertipped thrust to the neck is one of the more obvious applications comming right before the palm. But yeah... thats just my oppinion on direct fighting skills. Forms are just a less boring way of practicing the techniques, Tai chi forms are made for that aim, and also to increase the practitioners health. From what I gather.

[xyl]

playing devil's advocate...... assuming this definition of direct fighting skills, why would you learn these
skills in taiji quan, where its done slowly, when you could learn it from some other external art like
long fist, or karate, boxing. i think part of the reasoning of the question is why would we want to practice these chops and blocks all slow-like. again im playing devil's advocate cuz im interested in ppls opinion.

personally i think any art takes alot of practice and time to get to a certian level of effectiveness so its a matter of what ggg214 means? but if time isnt an issue then u can definetly use taiji for fighting,
strikes, joint locks, grappling... its all there. now finding a good taiji instructor, thats more of a challenge these days.

[xuesheng]

Well to me, direct fighting skills, are techniques or skills you can use easily in a fight, with desired results, and without years of training. Like a jab from boxing. Yeah? Correct me if I'm wrong though. Anyway, and tai chi has many of these things, I mean one of the applications for practically the first move in the Yang chen fu Tai chi form is a Simultanious block and strike, so out of it, you get a very simple and effective block for one of the most commom strikes in streetfights, a haymaker or hook. And you get a nice clean chop to the throat, which if you didnt want to kill them, could be transferred into a backfist, or a chop to the face. Its easy to apply, and is easy to execute, with great effects, once again, like a jab in boxing. And for even simpler, straighter moves, look in the step back repulse monkey section. A quick fingertipped thrust to the neck is one of the more obvious applications comming right before the palm. But yeah... thats just my oppinion on direct fighting skills. Forms are just a less boring way of practicing the techniques, Tai chi forms are made for that aim, and also to increase the practitioners health. From what I gather.

Yang style - Block perry and bunch is a punch a block an elbow strike and back fist just for an example.

playing devil's advocate...... assuming this definition of direct fighting skills, why would you learn these
skills in taiji quan, where its done slowly, when you could learn it from some other external art like
long fist, or karate, boxing. i think part of the reasoning of the question is why would we want to practice these chops and blocks all slow-like. again im playing devil's advocate cuz im interested in ppls opinion.

personally i think any art takes alot of practice and time to get to a certian level of effectiveness so its a matter of what ggg214 means? but if time isnt an issue then u can definetly use taiji for fighting,
strikes, joint locks, grappling... its all there. now finding a good taiji instructor, thats more of a challenge these days.

It does take a lot of time training taiji to be effective in the way taiji is meant to be. One of the reasons for slow is to teach yourself a different way of moving, meaning internally rather than externally.

My taiji Sifu has been at taiji and only taiji for over 50 years and stays incredibly relaxed no matter what you throw at him he can take you down, strike lock kick whatever is needed but he never appears to be tense of exerting all that much force. He is the only person that I have ever had lock me with qinna and I never felt it coming. I have in every other case felt it, I could not always stop it, but I have always known it was coming.

This is from many years of training. If you want quick self defense taiji is not what you want but if you are willing to dedicate many hours and many years to it then you will be amazed at the results.

I believe it was Tung Ying Chieh that said it takes 6 years of constant practice just to understand the long form and that is if you practice every single day and do the long for at least 3 times a day.

There are a lot of taiji people out there doing what they call martial taiji or combat taiji and they have combined it with some other style to get there and even though they may do a taiji form in application it is decidedly not taiji, generally they use way to much physical force. Taiji in application is best described, IMO, unification, patients and calm.

There is no quuick way to get to taiji as a martial art.

[kanik]

playing devil's advocate...... assuming this definition of direct fighting skills, why would you learn these
skills in taiji quan, where its done slowly, when you could learn it from some other external art like
long fist, or karate, boxing. i think part of the reasoning of the question is why would we want to practice these chops and blocks all slow-like. again im playing devil's advocate cuz im interested in ppls opinion.

personally i think any art takes alot of practice and time to get to a certian level of effectiveness so its a matter of what ggg214 means? but if time isnt an issue then u can definetly use taiji for fighting,
strikes, joint locks, grappling... its all there. now finding a good taiji instructor, thats more of a challenge these days.

Yeah fair enough. To me it just depends on the person. A tai chi practitioner will advance slower, than say, a boxer, but in the end, the tai chi practitioner will be able to advance further, so when the boxer only has he's physical characterstics eg. speed and strength, to advance, the tai chi practitioner can still advance in many other ways. Thee is so much more to learn. ANd as for doing it slowly, you start slow, to get good technique, and not all tai chi forms are done slow, at least not through the entire thing. But yeah, I like your question, its good food for thought. Oh, and that is purely my oppinion as somone who used to do boxing, and is currently doing Tai chi. But yeah, even in karate, my sensei allways said "Practice the moves slow, because then when you get them fast, your technique will be superior" because when your slow, you have a lot more control, and thus build it into your being easier. Oh! And I duno what it is, but soimthing about moving insanely slow, has actually helped me move faster when I decide to do so. I think it might be the fact that I have learn to relax more.

Haha! Yeah, thats the hardest thing, finding a GOOD tai chi instructer, practically all of them I have seen are compltely bogus, or just do it purely for the health, or know one or two dodgy applications. I'm so happy I found my teachers ^_^

[ggg214]

Yang style - Block perry and bunch is a punch a block an elbow strike and back fist just for an example.



It does take a lot of time training taiji to be effective in the way taiji is meant to be. One of the reasons for slow is to teach yourself a different way of moving, meaning internally rather than externally.

My taiji Sifu has been at taiji and only taiji for over 50 years and stays incredibly relaxed no matter what you throw at him he can take you down, strike lock kick whatever is needed but he never appears to be tense of exerting all that much force. He is the only person that I have ever had lock me with qinna and I never felt it coming. I have in every other case felt it, I could not always stop it, but I have always known it was coming.

This is from many years of training. If you want quick self defense taiji is not what you want but if you are willing to dedicate many hours and many years to it then you will be amazed at the results.

I believe it was Tung Ying Chieh that said it takes 6 years of constant practice just to understand the long form and that is if you practice every single day and do the long for at least 3 times a day.

There are a lot of taiji people out there doing what they call martial taiji or combat taiji and they have combined it with some other style to get there and even though they may do a taiji form in application it is decidedly not taiji, generally they use way to much physical force. Taiji in application is best described, IMO, unification, patients and calm.

There is no quuick way to get to taiji as a martial art.

Xue Sheng?nice to meet you here!

[ggg214]

taiji is not just to relax more, it requires you to pay more attention to your every single tiny move.
relax, then you can feel your body

[bratvas]

Is that what is generally called fighting in taiji
YouTube - Chen Xiao Wang vs Liao Bai

[kingoftheforest]

Cultural gap.

Probably a cultural thing. When people like Lui Wan Fu say technique it includes at least a punch and a kick st the same time attacking at least 2 sections of the body at once. Also incorporated into the technique may be a headbutt, shoulder strike, or throw.

One punch or grab doesn't constitute what these fighters considered a technique in their culture. So in the context of those parameters Lui is saying he never got off a clean technique. But I bet he didn't lose very often.

[jubaji]

One punch or grab doesn't constitute what these fighters considered a technique in their culture.

That makes no sense.