Learning Baguazhang

[Tsurugi24]

hey, pretty new to these forums, but just curious. I'm thinking of learning baguazhang, but the only real problem is finding a good teacher considering how complex the style is compared to xingyiquan and taijiquan. so those of you who are learning the style and are in the california area, I'm just curious about some recommendations. also wondering which style of baguazhang is mostly taught these days.

[ggg214]

if you find a bagua zhang teacher, if he decides to teach you the real bagua zhang, no matter what style he is, learn it.
you don't need to care about how popular the style of baguazhang is.
in my experience, the most popular style in CMA may not a true-fighting style, but money making style.

[kingoftheforest]

hey, pretty new to these forums, but just curious. I'm thinking of learning baguazhang, but the only real problem is finding a good teacher considering how complex the style is compared to xingyiquan and taijiquan. so those of you who are learning the style and are in the california area, I'm just curious about some recommendations. also wondering which style of baguazhang is mostly taught these days.

Really if you break Bagua down it's not to different from Tai Chi or Hsing Yi. In fact all three are relatives of each others.

Bagua is really just 8 palms, the changes for these palms, and circle walking. Everything else just stems form those movements.

If you can find anything by Tim Cartmel in the mean time I'd be a good place to start.

Honestly a lot of the filler is just family or lineage or someone else's interpretation of how a movement or form is done.

Good luck finding a teacher, you may want to also look into the books by Sun Lu Tang (Sun Lu Dong) on these three arts they can help explain a lot also.

[Tsurugi24]

I'm pretty aware that Baguazhang, Xingyiquan and Taijiquan are not really that different from each other. The reason I state Baguazhang is more complex is that it follows the Yi Jing philosophy word for word whereas Xingyiquan and Taijiquan only follows parts of the philosophy. and it's common sense that all the family styles or just variations of the original fighting form, but I'm only asking what style is more commonly taught seeing as the US only has certain styles that are more common then others.

The main difference between the 3 styles are more or less the fighting strategies.

Xingyiquan has an aggressive nature, linear movements and teaches practitioners to finish the fight as quickly as possible without exerting too much energy. The style more or less is about all out attack, but retreating for a moment until there is an opening to jump back in and continue the assault. This style is most effective for close range fighting.

Taijiquan is more defensive compared to Xingyiquan and uses calm and fluid movements. Taijiquan is also used as a form of counterattacking the opponent rather than fighting head on.

Baguazhang is a mix of the two styles, but is effective at all 3 ranges: close, mid and far range. The circle walking emphasizes footwork, focus on a single target, and walking around an opponent to easily get into an opening.

Most of this is probably wrong, but this is from what I've read from other sources

[kingoftheforest]

So you haven't studied any of these styles yet?

...................Sigh.

I can tell you to stay away from anything with John Painters name attached to it. Other than that you gotta just find what works for you.

If the schools starts with anything more complicated than eight mother palms and basic circle walking, or has a belt system or claims to have a teacher with extraordinary powers, run like hell.

Otherwise you just need to research schools in your area or advertise for a teacher on Craig's list I guess.

I've been studying as a live in student for 5 years now and as a student who traveled about 212 miles a weekend for 2 years before that. I'm now an assistant instructor for my teacher so I am aware of everything you stated above and it seems to be what all the books say almost word for word.

I wasn't attempting to belittle your knowledge on the subject and I apologize if it came off that way. If you ever have any questions feel free to PM me I'd be happy to help in any way I can.

[Tant01]

So you haven't studied any of these styles yet?

...................Sigh.

.

Don't over use it...

[kingoftheforest]

Don't over use it...

Aye Aye sir.

[DaleDugas]

JIulong Baguazhang

I find it interesting that people seem to discredit Dr. John Painter without actually meeting him or crossing hands with him to see if he has the goods or not.

I am a little biased being that I am one of his certified instructors under him, but meeting him in 1998 and actually seeing what he had saw me kow tow and follow him ever since.

So my advice is to seek out all Bagua that is in your area and see if its something you want to study for your own reasons whatever they may be.

There is nothing wrong with Jiulong Baguazhang or Dr. Painter.

Let me know if you have any questions and I will do my best to answer them.

[Tant01]

Lets do it!

I find it interesting that people seem to discredit Dr. John Painter without actually meeting him or crossing hands with him to see if he has the goods or not.

I am a little biased being that I am one of his certified instructors under him, but meeting him in 1998 and actually seeing what he had saw me kow tow and follow him ever since.

So my advice is to seek out all Bagua that is in your area and see if its something you want to study for your own reasons whatever they may be.

There is nothing wrong with Jiulong Baguazhang or Dr. Painter.

Let me know if you have any questions and I will do my best to answer them.

Here we go!

I wonder if KOTF is ready to stand by his statement and explain his point of view this time?

Gotta love a good nemisis...

[DaleDugas]

I find that most people who post under net persona pretty much hide rather than man up and expose who they really are.

Sad really when you think about it.

Talk is cheap. The only way is to come visit and see what the material can do. Dr. Painter can teach others to do what he does. Enough said in my book.

But then I do not hide behind some internet name or false sense of reality.

[kingoftheforest]

Here we go!

I wonder if KOTF is ready to stand by his statement and explain his point of view this time?

Gotta love a good nemisis...

I've seen the videos on Painter stumbling while doing demo forms. I have seen a competition video of Painter also. Wasn't good. He seemed to be off balance the whole time.

He makes his students bow and he does "Chi knockouts"

He has an honorary doctorate and his lineage is possibly a fraud.

I have instructors who have crossed hands with him and they have told me all I need to know. There is too much skepticism in the MA world about him.

I tell people to avoid George Dillman as well.

[kingoftheforest]

I find that most people who post under net persona pretty much hide rather than man up and expose who they really are.

Sad really when you think about it.

Talk is cheap. The only way is to come visit and see what the material can do. Dr. Painter can teach others to do what he does. Enough said in my book.

But then I do not hide behind some internet name or false sense of reality.

Sigh.................. I don't remember attacking who you are or why you chose to use the screen name you have. Let's try and be gentlemen about this maybe.

I'm not into flame wars.

BTW my pics up here in a few places.

[TTEscrima]

I find it interesting that people seem to discredit Dr. John Painter without actually meeting him or crossing hands with him to see if he has the goods or not.

I've met and crossed hands, it's been 20 years or so but I wasn't impressed.
He has some skill but he's borderline the George Dillman of Bagua, With the exception of Painter everyone I've ever met who taught the complete and utter nonsense of mystical Chi application came from the Japanese side of Martial arts, but unfortunately Painter spreads that nonsense into the CMA's.

I am a little biased being that I am one of his certified instructors under him, but meeting him in 1998 and actually seeing what he had saw me kow tow and follow him ever since.

So long as you're happy with it that's great, enjoy your studies.

I'm not sure about the "DR" title I know he was a clinical hypnotherapist at his clinic named the Life Science Ch'i Institute. "DR." isn't a normal Martial Art title, but it is a warning sign, so are the Kung fu suits that are period dress from a different culture, don't even get me started on kow towing, his "American Ranger" uniform and claims are hysterical to top it all off.

The lineage Painter claims is the most hysterical of any I've ever seen anywhere. Here is a link to his Bio:

Nine Dragon Baguazhang - Dr John P. Painter - Biography

He claims his teacher was Li Longdao (who no one in any lineage has ever heard of) and that"In 1957 he began to teach young John to practice a special game called stand like a tree or Quiet Standing. Mr. Li told that him Master Li, Ching-Yuen, a relative of his, had created this method as part of his Baguazhang health practice."

For those of you who aren't aware, its claimed that
Li Ching-Yuen, was born in 1677, survived twenty-three wives and died on March 5, 1933 at the age of 256 years.

http://www.zubeco.com/gotukola/lichingyuen.html

All of these things combined equal a great big flashing warning sign.










YouTube - Using intent in Jiulong Baguazhang

YouTube - Yi Xin Jin Intention Heart Energy

[kingoftheforest]

Second clip uses a lot of stiff upper body movement. I thought power was generated from the hips in Bagua, or any internal art.

It's not very fluid movement which brings me back to my point.

I'm not trying to say someone who trains with another teacher is wrong but I am allowed to have an opinion and this clip points out one of my main reasons for having a problem with this persons teachings. When you've been doing internal CMA's for as long as John Painter claims you should be more fluid and not have to generate power from your shoulders.

The first clip is the exact kind of thing that gives TCMA's a bad wrap with all the mystical "no touch" non-sense.

[TTEscrima]

hey, pretty new to these forums, but just curious. I'm thinking of learning baguazhang, but the only real problem is finding a good teacher considering how complex the style is compared to xingyiquan and taijiquan. so those of you who are learning the style and are in the california area, I'm just curious about some recommendations. also wondering which style of baguazhang is mostly taught these days.

I don't know where you are in CA but Sifu Adam Hsu is an incredible teacher with a verifiable lineage as opposed to some of the people with mystical, mysterious teachers that no one else has ever heard of.

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