Thoughts on the basics.

[kingoftheforest]

Here are just some random thoughts I had on the basics of TCMA's.
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The basics for most TCMA's internal or external are relatively simple.

Some have already been covered on the forum previously.

The basics are all important and build on each other. No one ideal could survive without the others. It would be like trying to figure out what is more important to your body. Your brain? Stomach? Heart?.
No one can survive without the others.

One concept and one of the basics found across the board on all MA's is root.

Root is the essential for not being shoved over or over powered by in coming strikes.

This thread covers most of the concepts of root and more advanced floating root.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/chinese-martial-arts/28668-root.html#post304753

Moving up on the body next would be how power is generated. The classics state that all movement is generated from the hips. The best way to understand this is to stand in an area with plenty of space, let your arms hang down at your sides limp or as loose as you can, and swing them using your hips.

Something like a washing machine agitator. You see little kids do it all the time if they're board or zoning out. Now practice adding control to your arms with out tensing up too much. Changing the part of the hand you intend to strike with changes the dynamic a little so practice many different strikes.

Now the difference between TCMA's and a lot of other arts is that, with practice you can generate power in your strike doing this with one leg off the ground. Especially if you have a good root and even better if you have been practicing floating root.

You can generate power from your hips and strike with just about any part of your body you want too.

Shoulder strikes, punches, head butts, kicks, even hip strikes, knees and elbows can be throw using power generated from the hip movement.

Next is knowing what weapons your body is and how to use them.
Some arts rely solely on hands and feet, Usually closed fists and feet.

Understand that your whole body is a weapon and depending on the situation, distance and timing, you can hit with any part. Head and shoulders, as well as fist feet, knees and elbows.

I wouldn't throw an elbow at punching range and I wouldn't throw a punch when I'm shoulder to shoulder.

Your hand has many striking surfaces. The simplest way to determine what to use to strike where is to follow the classics again “Hit soft parts of the body with hard parts of the hand...” and vice versa.

Always try to stay loose and relaxed this keeps your muscles from working against each other. When you're relaxed you can react faster.

[Ghost]

Here are just some random thoughts I had on the basics of TCMA's.
-----------------------------------------------------------------


The basics for most TCMA's internal or external are relatively simple.

Some have already been covered on the forum previously.

The basics are all important and build on each other. No one ideal could survive without the others. It would be like trying to figure out what is more important to your body. Your brain? Stomach? Heart?.
No one can survive without the others.

One concept and one of the basics found across the board on all MA's is root.

Root is the essential for not being shoved over or over powered by in coming strikes.

This thread covers most of the concepts of root and more advanced floating root.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/chinese-martial-arts/28668-root.html#post304753

Moving up on the body next would be how power is generated. The classics state that all movement is generated from the hips. The best way to understand this is to stand in an area with plenty of space, let your arms hang down at your sides limp or as loose as you can, and swing them using your hips.

Something like a washing machine agitator. You see little kids do it all the time if they're board or zoning out. Now practice adding control to your arms with out tensing up too much. Changing the part of the hand you intend to strike with changes the dynamic a little so practice many different strikes.

Now the difference between TCMA's and a lot of other arts is that, with practice you can generate power in your strike doing this with one leg off the ground. Especially if you have a good root and even better if you have been practicing floating root.

You can generate power from your hips and strike with just about any part of your body you want too.

Shoulder strikes, punches, head butts, kicks, even hip strikes, knees and elbows can be throw using power generated from the hip movement.

Next is knowing what weapons your body is and how to use them.
Some arts rely solely on hands and feet, Usually closed fists and feet.

Understand that your whole body is a weapon and depending on the situation, distance and timing, you can hit with any part. Head and shoulders, as well as fist feet, knees and elbows.

I wouldn't throw an elbow at punching range and I wouldn't throw a punch when I'm shoulder to shoulder.

Your hand has many striking surfaces. The simplest way to determine what to use to strike where is to follow the classics again “Hit soft parts of the body with hard parts of the hand...” and vice versa.

Always try to stay loose and relaxed this keeps your muscles from working against each other. When you're relaxed you can react faster.

Range is entirely fluid though, an elbow from punching range is potentially in range or just a step away. if you are punching in close range you can elbow.
When chest to chest with someone you can throw very powerful punches by stepping out with your rear leg see short range uppercuts and hooks which can benefit from an increase in power whilst on the retreat providing correct body mechanics are used. Infact a hook from here is about as powerful as a hook can ever get.

[TTEscrima]

Range is entirely fluid though, an elbow from punching range is potentially in range or just a step away. if you are punching in close range you can elbow.

In order to move from punching to elbow range you must step, that is a separate movement from the original movement and thus a separate technique.

When chest to chest with someone you can throw very powerful punches by stepping out with your rear leg see short range uppercuts and hooks which can benefit from an increase in power whilst on the retreat providing correct body mechanics are used. Infact a hook from here is about as powerful as a hook can ever get.

When the road is far use the hand, when the road is near use the elbow. Stepping back to power the strike is possible but it's less efficient than throwing the elbows you're already in range to throw. The Internal arts seek efficiency in motion, what's possible is less important than what's most efficient. When you're "chest to chest" stepping back to punch is less efficient than throwing elbows and short power strikes from where you are.

[Tant01]

With all due respect.

I've been attacked uncounted times and used elbows and head butts almost instinctively.

There are only a (VERY) few moments in time between the punching range and "grappling" range. In MANY cases (at least for ME) the antagonist was closing that gap with FULL intent to inflict serious trauma.

The great thing about the so called "root" (IMO) is that it gives you THAT much MORE TIME... Not sure how to break down the moments but you can literally AIM your elbow at the incoming weapons and DESTROY them. (SERIOUS compound fractures and all)... No need to take a step at all....
PURE "defense"....

I should REALLY read the whole post before I reply.... (NEVERMIND)


LOL

In order to move from punching to elbow range you must step, that is a separate movement from the original movement and thus a separate technique.


When the road is far use the hand, when the road is near use the elbow. Stepping back to power the strike is possible but it's less efficient than throwing the elbows you're already in range to throw. The Internal arts seek efficiency in motion, what's possible is less important than what's most efficient. When you're "chest to chest" stepping back to punch is less efficient than throwing elbows and short power strikes from where you are.

[TTEscrima]

I've been attacked uncounted times and used elbows and head butts almost instinctively.

There are only a (VERY) few moments in time between the punching range and "grappling" range. In MANY cases (at least for ME) the antagonist was closing that gap with FULL intent to inflict serious trauma.

The great thing about the so called "root" (IMO) is that it gives you THAT much MORE TIME... Not sure how to break down the moments but you can literally AIM your elbow at the incoming weapons and DESTROY them. (SERIOUS compound fractures and all)... No need to take a step at all....
PURE "defense"....

I should REALLY read the whole post before I reply.... (NEVERMIND)


LOL

Oh the time is indeed short, but there is a difference, although it's into the realm of half beats. You cannot land an (elbow to the body) if both opponents are at punching range (where elbows can't land without a step) someone must close that gap and while it can very fast it does indeed take time to change the range whether moving in or out...

Limb destructions from Silat tend to use the elbow at punching range as they shield and enter, these concepts are also found in the 24 elbows set from Chen style Taiji.

[Ghost]

In order to move from punching to elbow range you must step, that is a separate movement from the original movement and thus a separate technique.



When the road is far use the hand, when the road is near use the elbow. Stepping back to power the strike is possible but it's less efficient than throwing the elbows you're already in range to throw. The Internal arts seek efficiency in motion, what's possible is less important than what's most efficient. When you're "chest to chest" stepping back to punch is less efficient than throwing elbows and short power strikes from where you are.

elbow range is still punching range though, they arent seperate, there is a range in punching where you can elbow, but you can always punch in elbow range. Some boxers specialize on in-fighting or close range boxing.

Stepping with your rear leg only generates power and creates some range, its not less efficient.
Efficiency is about reducing wasted energy. Id equally take a back step to power the elbow as i would for a punch. It makes it more powerful if you are chest touching range.

lets be clear that punching range includes elbow range but also extends beyond elbow range.
I can throw a hook or uppercut that lands 6 inches from my face as hard as i can as one that lands 2-3 feet away.

Ranges are not independant of each other. you can kick in all ranges. in thai boxing we use the low kick in the clinch still. you can punch and kick and elbow.
To step increases power, its not inefficient, its efficient.
Id rather land a blow with a step involved.
Infact an elbow without a step is far less powerful than a punch without a step.

[Tant01]

If there was a point to my post it's that you can fairly count on an aggressive attacker to close the gap.

They literally crash through punching range in NO time.

[Ghost]

If there was a point to my post it's that you can fairly count on an aggressive attacker to close the gap.

They literally crash through punching range in NO time.

This is why we have footwork though, and punching etc can keep people back.

I think the notion of ranges is being taken too literally in this thread.

When people refer to punching range they usually mean punching as a collection of techniques moreso than they mean a literal physical range. Though they do mean this too.

Range is such a fluid thing that to talk in terms of here you punch, here you kick and here you elbow is not all that realistic.
You can punch in any range providing you can physically reach your opponent.
And there really defines everything, if you can reach them you are in range.
You can punch in a grapple, at a distance, on the floor etc.

Elbows were being mentioned and elbows are far more powerful with a step in the footwork. people seem to think elbows are this ultimate move. they are not.
In thailand thai boxers can be hit 20 times in a fight with powerful elbows and still not go down.

[TTEscrima]

elbow range is still punching range though, they arent seperate, there is a range in punching where you can elbow, but you can always punch in elbow range. Some boxers specialize on in-fighting or close range boxing.

It's nice that you're trying to apply boxing and MMA to the classic's of an Chinese Martial art but it doesn't apply...sure you can kick, punch or whatever at kissing distance but the proper tools for the job at kissing range are knee's and elbows and teeth combined with palms and clawing techniques according to Chinese Martial theory...what you do in the ring in boxing and MT or MMA has nothing to do with the equation.

Stepping with your rear leg only generates power and creates some range, its not less efficient.

Stepping away takes time and it's also a choice to step away instead of kneeing or stomping or entangling all of which could have provided an attack on their own while you elbowed....stepping back is purely to balance/power your punch, that makes it less efficient according to the classics of the Chinese Arts which are the subject of this thread.

Efficiency is about reducing wasted energy. Id equally take a back step to power the elbow as i would for a punch. It makes it more powerful if you are chest touching range.

Once again you're trying to rewrite and redefine the classics to suit the sport arts you practice. Efficiency is about ending the threat with as few extra movements as possible that don't either protect you or harm the opponent.

lets be clear that punching range includes elbow range but also extends beyond elbow range.

Lets be realistic, I can punch you from farther away than you can elbow me, that means the tools have different ranges at which they're efficient, sure you can do whatever you want, jump in from 10 feet away and throw a elbow if you want, that doesn't change the range at which elbows are the most efficient tool for the job. And yes you could punch at kissing range, but you could choose instead to follow the classics and be elbowing, neck cranking, applying spine torques or clawing the eyes, nostrils and cheeks while stepping behind or stomping the opponents feet.

Ranges are not independant of each other.

Um okay, Ghost says there is only one range.

you can kick in all ranges. in thai boxing we use the low kick in the clinch still. you can punch and kick and elbow.

No one ever you couldn't...but I'd much rather you tried to step back and punch me from a point where our chest were touching than you entangled my leg with a stomp as you elbowed me in the face.

To step increases power, its not inefficient, its efficient.
Id rather land a blow with a step involved.
Infact an elbow without a step is far less powerful than a punch without a step.

No shit? According to the classics the elbows are powered by the knees, in other words the actions of the knees bring the elbows into range and provide power by rising and sinking that can be added to the power provided by the waist turning.

One last time, a movement that provided support to another movement is less efficient than one that hurt the opponent independently. To use your example at chest touching range you intend to step back and punch, the classics say explode forward as though stepping on poisonous snakes while elbowing. This will not only cause the knee attack on the way up, it will also provide a entangle or leg blocking throw on the way down, the headbutt usually happens automatically if you use this combination at kissing range, the Classics way provided 4 attacks in the same beat you applied one, that's less efficient.

Since this is a thread in the Chinese arts forum discussing the basic lessons taught in the classics of the Chinese Internal Arts, your attempts at corrections to try to turn this into MT/Boxing lessons for the ring don't exactly apply anyway.

If you still think you're right, check Cung Le's record in MMA bouts. hehehe

[TTEscrima]

If there was a point to my post it's that you can fairly count on an aggressive attacker to close the gap.

They literally crash through punching range in NO time.

This is true, and the classics tell you to do what the opponent is doing, if he explodes forward, so do you, if someone attacks you when you're 3 feet away he doesn't usually expect you to move in and attack him, he expects you to move back and try to defend yourself.

[Ghost]

but stepping doesnt HAVE to add any time to the move at all. you just step within the time of the move, providing the range isnt too great.

Jesus, ill leave you guys to it, i guess basic really is the name of the game here.

edit: cung le does san shou, which is a basic version of thai boxing. When i used to do wushu i studied san shou as well for a couple of years. yes thats right i did chinese martial arts too, as well as karate for 2 years.
Most MMA guys have a weak standup game and kung le is good at stand up.etc

[kingoftheforest]

This aint boxing.

Damn, go to sleep, go to work, come home to 9 posts.

Well the last few posts covered a lot of what I had typed up already so I'll just have to wing it.

TTE is right on the money with the statement that the Classics and sport mentality don't jive together.

The classics are the concepts that TCMA's are base on. You can't say there really rules but required guidelines that if followed have proven to be more efficient.

First and foremost if you have to take a step back to punch regardless of what you're telling yourself you are not powering the punch with your hips.

If you were powering it with your hips you could throw the same punch at the same range on one leg. Unless you're packin a kickstand in your shorts it'd be hard to take a step back on only one leg.


Foot work was also mentioned. I didn't want to put that as a basic per say because different TCMA's use entirely different footwork.

Wing Chun foot work is going to be a lot different from the circular foot work of Bagua and so on. While foot work is muy importante it differs greatly from art to art.

Tant as for closing the distance quickly, you know that's a main rule in any non-sport fight. You have to get within striking range and you need to explode into it and smother the other guy before he has a chance to launch an attack.

The whole point of the circular motion in TCMA's is that at some point you will meet your attacker body, and a circle covers the most area the fastest and most efficiently.

Remember guys this is CMA not MMA so the advantage of ring rules is out the window.

And for you ghost here I will post again why boxers only think they use there hips to punch, since we seem to have this discussion in every CMA thread I've ever been in with you. I'll just head it off at the pass now.
I'm not attempting to be offensive or sarcaic I jus know whats coming.


Let me first begin by saying I can see how the wording in some of my previous explanations could be taken the wrong way. I in no means have meant to slight boxing in anyway. In fact the first art I ever studied was western boxing. Boxing like most internal arts generates whats called sectional power. This means that the body through the body one section at a time. While a boxer may push with his foot he then turns with his waist using the power from the foot push off then using the power from the waist turning he pushes out his shoulder then using the power from the shoulder he pushes his arm forward and then using the foward momentum pushes his fist out to strike the opponent. Also a boxer turns his hand palm down when striking in what is known in CMA's as moon fist. This causes some of the power generated by the shoulder to dissipate due to the change in muscle alignment of the arm.

These movements differ from the power generated in whole unified body movement because each section of the body robs power from the last section to continue the movement. Can western boxers hit like a friggin' truck this way after training it long enough? Hell yes! And western boxers even have the snap at the end of the punch.
The difference is that in an internal style the practitioner uses the body like a whip so that it's more of a sinuous fluid motion where the whole body flicks at one time on one side without the sectional detours.

I hope this helps in clarifying what my intended prior commentary was. Once again I am by no means an expert just somebody trying to understand and help build a solid foundation on my understanding.


KOTF

[TTEscrima]

but stepping doesnt HAVE to add any time to the move at all. you just step within the time of the move, providing the range isnt too great.

But dude you just claimed "Ranges are not independant of each other". NOW the range might too great to use a technique from a certain range, you don't seem to have a clear understanding of your own beliefs. Perhaps some time studying the basics is in order, LOL.

Jesus, ill leave you guys to it, i guess basic really is the name of the game here.

Which explains why you're in over your head eh? You can't remember what you believe from one post to the next, learn the basics dude.

edit: cung le does san shou, which is a basic version of thai boxing. When i used to do wushu i studied san shou as well for a couple of years. yes thats right i did chinese martial arts too, as well as karate for 2 years.
Most MMA guys have a weak standup game and kung le is good at stand up.etc

Uh huh, Cung Le was 3 time Captain of the American Wushu team, and those kicks are not what you see in a traditional Thai boxing match or people wouldn't be having such a hard time with them would they? It's funny how all the MMA nuthuggers proclaimed Cung Le was gonna get creamed for trying to bring that Kungfu shit in the ring until he went 6-0 and took the Belt, now suddenly he's an MMA guy who does derivatives of the MMA arts, whatever lets the fans sleep at night.

[Ghost]

But dude you just claimed "Ranges are not independant of each other". NOW the range might too great to use a technique from a certain range, you don't seem to have a clear understanding of your own beliefs. Perhaps some time studying the basics is in order, LOL.



Which explains why you're in over your head eh? You can't remember what you believe from one post to the next, learn the basics dude.



Uh huh, Cung Le was 3 time Captain of the American Wushu team, and those kicks are not what you see in a traditional Thai boxing match or people wouldn't be having such a hard time with them would they? It's funny how all the MMA nuthuggers proclaimed Cung Le was gonna get creamed for trying to bring that Kungfu shit in the ring until he went 6-0 and took the Belt, now suddenly he's an MMA guy who does derivatives of the MMA arts, whatever lets the fans sleep at night.

Mate i hardly watch MMA, i like thai boxing and boxing, i have an interest in MMA but nothing on the scale that i like thai boxing and boxing. I dont even know how many fights hes had or who he has fought.

When im talking about stepping in and out of range im talking about literal range, not switching between elbow and punching range.
My point is that if you land the blow when you step its not actually taking you any longer to make the move, though this would become noticeable if you are taking a really long step. which is fact.
Adding a step adds power, this isnt ineffecient. It will shorten the length of the fight to land a more powerful blow.

You need to stop being an asshole about trying to lord chinese martial arts over thaiboxing. im not doing the reverse so i dont see any need for you to do it to me. We having a discussion about bodymechanics and efficiency of motion.
Its always the same bloody arguement with you guys trying to lord it over ring based sports.

Im giving you solid reasons as to why you are wrong and you havent come up with anything other than "its less efficient" which i have shown you is incorrect. To generate extra power with a step that loses no time is not inefficient. it wins the fight faster.

You also cannot try to prove your point by using kung le as an example. Hes not doing what you are talking about. San Shou, which i have told you i studied for 2 years myself, uses the same principals i am talking about.
As for brining up the kicks he uses, which is entirely irrelevant, they might not be used in MMA but they are in kickboxing and thai boxing. so i really still dont see your point.

[Ghost]

ok ok, totally disagree KOTF, just to point out that when stepping backwards you can generate massive hip rotation which is particularly useful for upward, lateral elbows as well as hook and uppercut punches.

anyway ill leave this before it turns into another massive pile of crap like most of the other threads in this section. lol no really ill leave before we have another argument over this and leave you guys to it.