Kung Fu and Grappling?

[TigerClaw]

Hello all,

I am aware that kung fu has grappling in different styles. But it seems that a modern misconception is that kung fu does not have ground fighting or real grappling and therefore it is not useful for an attacker who may take you to the ground. I don't agree with those who imply this. It seems that because of much of the MMA fighting we see on TV today that Kung Fu is not practicle for such combat. Again, I don't agree with this. Kung fu is for survival and combat not a sport as we see on TV, there are no rules in the street.

Does anyone here agree with this? By the way, I know that we can learn from all styles and incorporate them into kung fu , but I thnik there is such a massive resource of kung fu styles and techniques to be exhausted before we need to abandon our kung fu and become grapplers. By the way I have learnd from my study of Jujitsu and other grapplimng type fighting styles. But I add a kung fu flavour to it. I want to end the fight as fast as posiible and not wrestle on the ground especially if there is more than one attacker. This usually involve clawing attacks and soft tissue attacks etc.

In one Kung Fu club I trained, the instructor did fight on the ground at times, and I also have learned ground fighting techniques. In Kung Fu we can apply many techniques that we would do from a standing stance to a ground position as well.

I have learned that when ground fighting the soft tissue is very vulnerable in alot of cases. By this I mean the eyes groins throat pressure points etc. Does anyone here agree or disagree with me here?

Does anyone have any examples through video or pictures or internet etc of ground fighting in kung fu? Or grappling?

If so, I would like to see them in here.

[TigerClaw]

Hello all,

How do I post pictures in here from my computer, if they are not on the net, but just on my computer? Can anyone help me with this?

[FLMKane]

Ahem, ahem... Kung Fu grappling? Not recommended. It's good but Judo or BJJ is WAY better. The reason Kung Fu ain't in UFC is because the effective styles are not very popular, and the ones who do practice them tend to concentrate on using a wide arsenal of moves they barely comprehend (72 techniques in 5 animals style). There is no point in TRYING to comprehend them because in a fight you MUST NOT rely on too many move. It WILL slow you down.

And yes, soft tissue is vulnerable on the ground.

BTW you MUST NOT generalize Kung Fu. It's not one style, it is a category of styles, with many thousands of martial arts. Not all are effective.

As for the survival vs sport arguement GIVE ME A BREAK! IF YOU CANNOT SURVIVE IN A RING, with a referre, gloves and rules, you will be USELESS on th street against a skilled opponent.

[TTEscrima]

Ahem, ahem... Kung Fu grappling? Not recommended. It's good but Judo or BJJ is WAY better. The reason Kung Fu ain't in UFC is because the effective styles are not very popular, and the ones who do practice them tend to concentrate on using a wide arsenal of moves they barely comprehend (72 techniques in 5 animals style).

Its much easier to find a great Judo or BJJ school than it is to find a good CMA school. That being said, Shuai Chiao is a great art.

And it's best to take your own advice about generalizing that the CMA's are bound to the 5 Animal style that they barely comprehend.

BTW you MUST NOT generalize Kung Fu. It's not one style, it is a category of styles, with many thousands of martial arts. Not all are effective.

[jubaji]

Is Tiger Claw KungFuMan who got chased off the DL?

[FLMKane]

And it's best to take your own advice about generalizing that the CMA's are bound to the 5 Animal style that they barely comprehend.

I did'nt say that... I was using 5 Animal style as an example to explain a point.

[TigerClaw]

I never get chased off anywhere

[jubaji]

So it is you!

[TigerClaw]

Ahem, ahem... Kung Fu grappling? Not recommended. It's good but Judo or BJJ is WAY better. The reason Kung Fu ain't in UFC is because the effective styles are not very popular, and the ones who do practice them tend to concentrate on using a wide arsenal of moves they barely comprehend (72 techniques in 5 animals style). There is no point in TRYING to comprehend them because in a fight you MUST NOT rely on too many move. It WILL slow you down.

And yes, soft tissue is vulnerable on the ground.

BTW you MUST NOT generalize Kung Fu. It's not one style, it is a category of styles, with many thousands of martial arts. Not all are effective.

As for the survival vs sport arguement GIVE ME A BREAK! IF YOU CANNOT SURVIVE IN A RING, with a referre, gloves and rules, you will be USELESS on th street against a skilled opponent.

A Kung Fu fighter (lets say a master) could survive in the ring. But many of the techniques used in Kung Fu for grappling would not be allowed in the ring. Kung Fu has some of the most dangerous attacking methods in close quarter combat in the world, in my opinion.

You see, the big difference between Sport fighting and real combat survival fighting is that in real life survival combat a kung fu fighter will go immediately for the eyes, groin, soft tissue, throat, pressure points, fingers joints etc using clawing methods, Pheonix eye strikes, arm breaks ,gouges etc, ec , etc,etc. This is life and death and it does not depend on size or strength always.

A kung fu fighter could survive in the ring, but the point is that the way many learn kung fu is for self defense and not to get popularity by brawling others in the ring, they don't seek a belt or pride or glory of men. Their whole understanding is quite different. At least the way I learned and many other clubs teach. But don't be mistaken, Kung Fu has some of the most advanced form of fighting on the planet in my opinion. Most people in the West rarely even see real kung fu.

I have watched many a MMA fight and I have seen how many times the opponents groin, throat, eyes and other vital areas are exposed. In a real fight, these would be the first to be attacked, and the entire fight would change direction. Watch next time and you will see this clearly how many times a persons hand waves over the others face or how often the groin is exposed or the finger joints etc. I know, that it is only a sport and that is my point, there is a great difference between real life combat survival fighting that Kung Fu stylish are taught and sport fighting with many rules

So to try and slam kung fu fighters because they do not enter such competitions is not fair. Imagine if a Kung Fu man was to enter a boxing competition and the reff said, that he had to wear these big red gloves, (which would eliminate many hand techniques for the kung fu fighter and grabs and claws etc etc etc) and then the reff said, no kicking, not striking the groin or back of the head, and you are not allowed to do large swinging circular strikes etc etc, etc. Basically, the Kung Fu fighter would be told not to use his kung fu. the same goes for MMA fighting in the sport arena, the Kung Fu man is told not to use many of hs techniques that would be natural in real combat. Yes the Kung Fu fighter could rely on many other techniques (because there is such a vast amount on knowledge in the kung fu world) but it would not be a fair judgement of how a Kung Fu fighter really fight. I know that many MMA fighters know some similar attacks in a real fight also. But my point is that you cannot judge a Kung Fu fighter by such rules.

Another important aspect to a true understanding is that MMA has been developing its fighting style (so to speak) for about ten years or so. But Kung Fu has had centuries of development and actaul combat and in war and street fighting experience. It has had alot of time to develope what they teach. This should make Kung Fu among one of the most advanced form of fighting in the world.
I am by no means at all slamming any other style. I admire much of Jujitsu and other styles and I do study other styles also. But I am just addressing your discussion of Kung Fu.

One last point, you talk of there being so many moves to remember and in a fight you only need a few. Well, that is what practice is for, and body memory. If you train your body in forms and two man sparring forms this developes what i call "form fighting". It teaches you to move in form and with stances and to use the techniques in combat. It seems that many today will disregard this aspect of forms and when they come to fighting they just throw it away and stand high and become kick boxers. Not that klck boxing isn't good, but why bother learning forms if you don't fight like you do in forms. The origionaters put their techniques in the forms becuase theses worlked for them and they fought that way.

You can fight in form but it takes longer to master. But in the end it is better I believe.

I have had men attack me in the past and I fought in form and stances and with proper hand positioning and they were unable to break my guard and overcome me. One man I refer to specifically was a boxer who had some martial arts training and he was a burrly man very strong and he used kicking and striking and aspects of his previous training, but no Kung Fu. He saw me practicing on the bag using kung fu and he may have thought as some do that it was not effective in a real fight. So he asked me about what I was doing, and I told him, i was practicing Kung Fu and then said "what if the guy does this" or something like that and he suddenly attacked me. I don't think he was trying to kill me or anything, but he came so hard and he kept getting frustrated when he could not touch me he was very agrressive. Yet, I was able to overcome all his attacks and strike him often (though I did not hurt him) My very first strike was after I countered his two fast strikes to my face I blocked with a double snake block and quickly snapppd my hand just obove his eyes on his head. I tapped him quite hard and if it had been a real fight it would have hit his eyes and the fight would have stopped. He even tried to grapple me later, only to find a tiger claw in his eyes and face. He later wanted to learn kung fu. I mostly used the snake style to counter him. The snake style is very fast and effective. I stood in stances and moved in stances and in a snake guard position. Snake style can be incredibly fast and subtle. To an onlooker they may have thought I was doing prearranged movements from some Kung Fu movie. I am not saying this to boast, but to make a point that there is much about Kung Fu that people are unaware of .

Last point,

Think of it this way. A man steps in the ring with a tiger, but the tiger has its claws taken out and its mouth shut. He may stand a chance for a while against the tiger. But now take the wire off the mouth and put the claws in, and what will happen as soon as the man grapples the tiger? This is similar to what Kung Fu fighter would be like.

[TigerClaw]

jubaji,

who are you?

[Jujujason]

You know what I think is absolutely hilarious??? When the traditional ma's/'real combat' practioners start preaching about soft-tissue attacks, as if ANY of that takes any real training to pull off AND as if the judo/wrestling/bjj/sambo can't or won't do any of that, too. Please, please, PLEASE get a grip... If you can't get a grip, then ask someone to help you get a grip and stop using the forum to push your own agenda in such an underhanded manner. The rest of us are truly sorry that your art didn't survive the Darwinian 90's but 'oh well'.

[Ghost]

Sorry but this is more of the, SECRET KUNG MASTERS, SECRET TECHNIQUES.

Show me someone, there must be someone you can show me.

For what its worth all thise eye gouges and so on are hard to pull of when you are being punched in the face. though i will conceed that thai boxing and the like lacks certain moves. But to base your entire fight strategy on them, forget it.
I would rather have boxing only compared to the VITAL STRIKES only.
Because i know that id win 99% of fights with boxing.

So show me someone. I keep hearing about this and that would happen, i put it to you that it doesnt happen. Cos the reality is different.
One other question. I studied escrima and JKD and covered throat, eye, ear attacks, biting, headbutting and so on, and i can mix that up easily with my thai boxing, would you say thats the best mix?

A Kung Fu fighter (lets say a master) could survive in the ring. But many of the techniques used in Kung Fu for grappling would not be allowed in the ring. Kung Fu has some of the most dangerous attacking methods in close quarter combat in the world, in my opinion.

You see, the big difference between Sport fighting and real combat survival fighting is that in real life survival combat a kung fu fighter will go immediately for the eyes, groin, soft tissue, throat, pressure points, fingers joints etc using clawing methods, Pheonix eye strikes, arm breaks ,gouges etc, ec , etc,etc. This is life and death and it does not depend on size or strength always.

A kung fu fighter could survive in the ring, but the point is that the way many learn kung fu is for self defense and not to get popularity by brawling others in the ring, they don't seek a belt or pride or glory of men. Their whole understanding is quite different. At least the way I learned and many other clubs teach. But don't be mistaken, Kung Fu has some of the most advanced form of fighting on the planet in my opinion. Most people in the West rarely even see real kung fu.

I have watched many a MMA fight and I have seen how many times the opponents groin, throat, eyes and other vital areas are exposed. In a real fight, these would be the first to be attacked, and the entire fight would change direction. Watch next time and you will see this clearly how many times a persons hand waves over the others face or how often the groin is exposed or the finger joints etc. I know, that it is only a sport and that is my point, there is a great difference between real life combat survival fighting that Kung Fu stylish are taught and sport fighting with many rules

So to try and slam kung fu fighters because they do not enter such competitions is not fair. Imagine if a Kung Fu man was to enter a boxing competition and the reff said, that he had to wear these big red gloves, (which would eliminate many hand techniques for the kung fu fighter and grabs and claws etc etc etc) and then the reff said, no kicking, not striking the groin or back of the head, and you are not allowed to do large swinging circular strikes etc etc, etc. Basically, the Kung Fu fighter would be told not to use his kung fu. the same goes for MMA fighting in the sport arena, the Kung Fu man is told not to use many of hs techniques that would be natural in real combat. Yes the Kung Fu fighter could rely on many other techniques (because there is such a vast amount on knowledge in the kung fu world) but it would not be a fair judgement of how a Kung Fu fighter really fight. I know that many MMA fighters know some similar attacks in a real fight also. But my point is that you cannot judge a Kung Fu fighter by such rules.

Another important aspect to a true understanding is that MMA has been developing its fighting style (so to speak) for about ten years or so. But Kung Fu has had centuries of development and actaul combat and in war and street fighting experience. It has had alot of time to develope what they teach. This should make Kung Fu among one of the most advanced form of fighting in the world.
I am by no means at all slamming any other style. I admire much of Jujitsu and other styles and I do study other styles also. But I am just addressing your discussion of Kung Fu.

One last point, you talk of there being so many moves to remember and in a fight you only need a few. Well, that is what practice is for, and body memory. If you train your body in forms and two man sparring forms this developes what i call "form fighting". It teaches you to move in form and with stances and to use the techniques in combat. It seems that many today will disregard this aspect of forms and when they come to fighting they just throw it away and stand high and become kick boxers. Not that klck boxing isn't good, but why bother learning forms if you don't fight like you do in forms. The origionaters put their techniques in the forms becuase theses worlked for them and they fought that way.

You can fight in form but it takes longer to master. But in the end it is better I believe.

I have had men attack me in the past and I fought in form and stances and with proper hand positioning and they were unable to break my guard and overcome me. One man I refer to specifically was a boxer who had some martial arts training and he was a burrly man very strong and he used kicking and striking and aspects of his previous training, but no Kung Fu. He saw me practicing on the bag using kung fu and he may have thought as some do that it was not effective in a real fight. So he asked me about what I was doing, and I told him, i was practicing Kung Fu and then said "what if the guy does this" or something like that and he suddenly attacked me. I don't think he was trying to kill me or anything, but he came so hard and he kept getting frustrated when he could not touch me he was very agrressive. Yet, I was able to overcome all his attacks and strike him often (though I did not hurt him) My very first strike was after I countered his two fast strikes to my face I blocked with a double snake block and quickly snapppd my hand just obove his eyes on his head. I tapped him quite hard and if it had been a real fight it would have hit his eyes and the fight would have stopped. He even tried to grapple me later, only to find a tiger claw in his eyes and face. He later wanted to learn kung fu. I mostly used the snake style to counter him. The snake style is very fast and effective. I stood in stances and moved in stances and in a snake guard position. Snake style can be incredibly fast and subtle. To an onlooker they may have thought I was doing prearranged movements from some Kung Fu movie. I am not saying this to boast, but to make a point that there is much about Kung Fu that people are unaware of .

Last point,

Think of it this way. A man steps in the ring with a tiger, but the tiger has its claws taken out and its mouth shut. He may stand a chance for a while against the tiger. But now take the wire off the mouth and put the claws in, and what will happen as soon as the man grapples the tiger? This is similar to what Kung Fu fighter would be like.

[TigerClaw]

You know what I think is absolutely hilarious??? When the traditional ma's/'real combat' practioners start preaching about soft-tissue attacks, as if ANY of that takes any real training to pull off AND as if the judo/wrestling/bjj/sambo can't or won't do any of that, too. Please, please, PLEASE get a grip... If you can't get a grip, then ask someone to help you get a grip and stop using the forum to push your own agenda in such an underhanded manner. The rest of us are truly sorry that your art didn't survive the Darwinian 90's but 'oh well'.

Hello, jujujason,

You say that it does not take any real training to pull off soft tissue attacks, but you seem to be really saying, that you have no idea what kung fu stylist mean when they say such things. Before you judge another style or technique you should have some idea of what it is they are talking about and how they do it. There is a advanced training needed to do such techniques properly. You are dealing with proper hand positioning, pressure points and muscle tissue areas, right amount of force and angle, and settting up the attack and finishing it. etc etctec. You are the hilarious one here sad to say. You have no idea. (please try not to just attack me and slander me without first considering what I say and trying to talk in a peaceful way constructive way)

And I know that other styles have some of these techniques. But often many judo practitioners and other grapplers do not train to much in this way, as far as I have observed over the years. They seem to be more focused on sport tournaments etc.

Also, you said, I am pushing my agenda. That is not true, if you mean that I want to discuss the modern thinking towards MMA fighters and Kung Fu. I am doing that. But I do not have a real agenda. I suppose I could develope one and tro to get all artial artist to cnsider Kung Fu. And I could also encourage all to watch out when they are on the streets and a situation happens to be ready in the best way they can to end the fight as fast as they can and not to try and grapple on the ground in all cases. Especily if two attackers or more are coming at you. The last thing you want to do is go to the ground in that case, (as I believe).

And Kung Fu has been going on and on for centuries, nothing to do with the 90's.

It is unfortunate that many seem to underestimate the vast resources that Kung Fu has to offer. As I said before I believe that in Chinese Gung Fu systems there are some of the most advanced and powerful fighting arts on the planet. I am not putting down any other art, I am merely speaking from my understanding and study. If you have studied it as I have you would not be so fast to mock.

Gung Fu has survived and will be here for a long time. If some are unaware of it that is thier loss.

[jubaji]

Yup, this is the same guy who got absolutely humiliated and run off the dragonslist forum recently. It was pretty funny actually. Brace yourselves for page upon page of absolute bullshit.

[Ghost]

We are due our weekly nutjob moving in here.

pony tails and flipflops FTW!

Yup, this is the same guy who got absolutely humiliated and run off the dragonslist forum recently. It was pretty funny actually. Brace yourselves for page upon page of absolute bullshit.