Kung Fu and MMA

[TigerClaw]

Hello all,

I have been saying for a long time now that MMA fighting is a sport fighting and Kung Fu has a survival combat aspect to it. Don't get me wrong, I am not attacking MMA or any other style, I am merely making observation about the present mindset and reality. I am also trying to correct an imbalance that I have observed.

There is a difference and in a combat fight. A Kung Fu practitioner will go for the soft tissue and the eyes, throat, groin, nerves other muscle attacks and joint attacks, pressure points, fish hooking the eyes and lips etc., it will seem to be dirty fighting but it is not. I am aware that MMA fighters can do this also but my point is that they don't do this on TV or in the rings with the rules. I am not sure if there is much of this kind of teaching even in some other styles, or defenses for such techniques. But as we watch the latest fad we see a fighting style that is one step above Kick Boxing and Judo full contact. However, the very idea that such a fighter is the "ULTIMATE FIGHTER", is not credible, (in my opinion). Sadly it seems that Kung Fu clubs has suffered a bit from this misconception. It apperars that some may look at Kung Fu as not practicle or for combat etc or having no ground game. But what I believe has happened is that many have not been made aware of the centuries of development of Kung Fu and the massive amount of knowledge that is available withing the many systems. And yes, Kung Fu does have a ground game also.

I believe that within the Kung Fu styles are some of the most advanced and powerful martial arts existing on the planet. This is my opinion after many years of study and practice and examining martial arts.

But, back to my point, if a person was allowed to attack the soft tissue in combat such as,the eyes, groin, throat, pressure points, etc, the entire fight would take on a different direction, and it would be over a lot faster. Imagine in real combat a person attack and is kicked in the groin then spear handed in the eyes, the fight is over. Or a man tries to grapple another and as soon as he does this his eyes get gouged and his kneck twisted, or his groin crushed etc.

As I see it, there "SPORT FIGHTING", and there is "COMBATIVE SURVIVAL FIGHTING". The two are very different. In the MMA fights we see on TV often, (these are sport fighting), watch how many times the fighters leave their eyes, throat, groin soft tissue fingers, etc, etc exposed. I know it is a sport and with rules, but that is my point. A kung Fu fighter could not be allowed to use a strong part of his arsenal in such an environment. It is like putting a Kung Fu man in a boxing ring, he would still do well, but it would be like saying to him, don't use your Kung Fu. You must wear these big gloves, which will not allow him to grab, claw, hook gouge or use many other hand techniques. He also cannot kick or hit behind the head or grab or take down etc. This would not be a good example of a Kung Fu stylist. The same is similar in MMA fighting with the Kung Fu fighter as I see it. Plus many Kung Fu fighters only fight for self defense and not for glory or a blet or pride etc. The moral aspect of martial arts is very important as I see it. You do not want to give a gun to someone unless they are responsible.

I think very few today have ever really seen a Kung Fu fighter and his techniques.

Also, the kind of fighting we see in the ring may not be practicle in a real fight, (though some of it would be) I speak more about the ground fighting and grasppling. Kung Fu does have many techniques to deal with grappling also and they do have ground fighting in their systems also. But Kung Fu seeks to end the fight as soon as possible not to get all tangled up and wrestle with the opponent. Also on the streets there are often multiple opponents. The last thing you want to do when a few men are attacking you is wrestle on of them on the ground, (in my opinion, which I speak from having started martial arts over 20 years ago).

Imagine taking a tiger and taking out its claws and sealing it's mouth. A fighter might stand a chance aginst it. But leave the claws in and open its mouth, now what is going to happen when you attack the tiger. This is similar with the Kung Fu fighter in a grappling situation. Kung Fu is preparation for war and combat survival.

Here is some things I just read in "Black Belt Magazine" the new edition on the stands, they are very similar to what I have been saying about this topic. I read these things after I had been discussing this for a while.

"If your on the ground, you need to immediately strike hard. The head is the main target. Take out the eyes, the breathing apparatus, the throat, the nerve groups" (pg 89 Black Belt magazine Januray 2009 edition, by a master named, John Pelegrini, who was introduced into the Black belt hall of fame in 2004 as instructor of the year. His fighting system is one of the systems that the US military is interested in)
He also said,

"...I am appauled that some units learn Brazillian jujitsu and are encouraged to fight on the ground...But the idea is to immediately dislodge the person and recover the dominant standing position. It's not about grappling and rolling on the ground." (when he speaks about
'units", he is refering to military training)(pg 91 Black Belt Magazine)

Another man in the same magazine unde a different article said,

"MMA competition is first and foremost a dueling environment. Self defese is an entirely different animal, and the legal system requires requires you distinguish between the two. "
Wim Demeere is a reality based self defense instructor.

And one more expert says,

"Techniques that would be considered dirty fighting in most martial arts_attacks on the eyes and airways-are staples of reality based self defense." (Henry Kou page, 118, Black belt magazine, he is a level four instructor in Commando Krav maga)

Ok, later.

[Tom Yum]

Appropriate tool for the situation at hand.

If you have a drunk/out of control friend, you might want to tie him up with something like the clinch, followed by a duck under etc. Ground game would be good.

If you are in unknown territory and fighting to survive, go for the spear fingers, gouges, kinna mutai Phillipino fighting, qinna etc pull out your own blade and save your ass.

[TigerClaw]

Tom,

Yes, thank you for clarifying. Obviously we are not going to attack vital points and soft tissue in every case good point. I guess I am speaking of a Kung Fu fighter being attacked by a experienced grappler.

[Ghost]

Hi Tigerclaw, i think the problem comes at the point you try to apply these techniques.
For instance, against a thai boxer, how would you apply an eye gouge, a lot of the soft tissue strikes can be blocked in the same manner as any other strike.
In fact in thai boxing we stress this, that blocks are to block an entire area, whats coming at you makes no different. So i can fight a TKD and block his kicks with the same techniques as i use for thai boxing.
This is because there are only so many angles of attack.

Lets take the abdomen for example. Be it a back kick, a side kick or a push kick, we use the same defense. We simply see the angle of attack and then apply the block.
This would make it hard to land blows against a thai boxer. We have loads of punches thrown at our eyes all day long. so what happens when your strike at the eye doesnt land and we counter?

So what im getting at is that the shots you are talking about are very easy to defend against. and thats where it falls down in terms of it being what you rely on to win.

I mean dont think id fight in the ring in the same way id fight street. I can headbutt, bite etc. i mean in boxing we aim for the throat when punching anyway as we keep the chin down.

I get what you are getting at though. But you would come unstuck too easily imo.
How will you deal with the punches and kicks that will be coming your way?

I think the techniques you list have their place and should be learnt, and im aware they are lacking in thai boxing and the like. But quite honestly i think you would be in for a shock.

Ive sparred many kung fu students over the years and never had any trouble knocking them from one side of the room to the other. I dont see how they can land these "special techniques" if they cant land anything else.

[Tom Yum]

And going with what Ghost has written, these techniques need to be practiced in a live environment to make them work. Whether you are focusing on gauging, ripping, bitting, stomps etc - need to be done against resisting opponents in as spontaneous environment as can be done - without maiming your training partner - hence the reason and need for sport-like training methods.

Tigerclaw, there are full padded suits, with thick masks and groin protection that martial art schools can purchase that allow practitioners interested in Self-defense to do full contact head butting, eye gouges, knife-hand style strikes to vital parts, groin strikes/control, stomps.

The difference between any TMAist that makes his style work and any MMAist is that the MMAist can learn simple techniques delivered from simple/direct footwork and put them to use right away in the environment they are intended for.

The TMAist has to take alot longer time to adjust to a completely new way of moving that seems foreign to them; he or she may not be used to and "figure out" how to make their body work for them while changing stances. Once they have this completely new style of moving, and striking, they then have to find a way to practice this (which is not readily available unless they buy said equipment). The outcome is the same - an individual who understands how to use their footwork, changes in center of gravity, how to use their hips, legs, evasive head movement to kick, strike, infight, grapple.

MMA quickly mass produces hardened, tough ring fighters with some techniques they can use for self-defense.

TMA (assuming quality instruction and indiv. experience) produces more well-rounded individuals, who might do so-so in sparring/grappling but whom have more tools at their disposal outside of the ring - that their opponents may not expect or have seen.

That's why sometimes you see a Tae kwon do guy find an opening, throw a high, hard, fast hook kick and knock out some dude who was expecting a slug fest or a shaolin stylist jam his fingers on a nerve bundle on the base of the neck (looking like he's just touching him) and put the guy off balance.

[Ghost]

I remeber having a discussion with one guy about being open to eye gouges in the clinch.
I offered for him to try this going for the dent above the eyebrow as for substitute for the eye.
I told him that if he didnt enter a grapple with me hed get kneed in the head because hes offering no resistance.
We drilled it a few times and he got me once. i mock-kneed him in the head around a dozen times and applied several of the regular thai standing side chokes as well as elbows to the head.
The problem with not engaging in the clinch is that you are open to elbows and knees to the head as well as standing chokes that leave you open to a really nasty kneeing.
Now he did get me once in the right area, i doubt it would have stopped me.

THe thing was he has no standing clinch game that was anywhere near up to the level i had. He suffered because of it.

The difference was that i was treating it as a real fight. So i wasnt trying to save any energy. I was tossing him all over the place like my life depended on it. Not using hte clinch in a drawn out manner as i might inthe ring to wear my opponent down.
For me this was an easy change to make. I could totally dominate him by using all the technique with maximum power.
Most of the time his head was around my waist height, he couldnt even lift his head up to get his arm high enough to eye gouge.
Thats technique combined with extreme force, but nothing no one else could do. That could be done by anyone of reasonable fitness providing they had the sparring training in the clinch.

That doesnt mean eye gouges arent relevant. But it means you have to be bloody careful when you use them and be aware of the consequences of whenyou dont.

Remember when you watch an MMA guy or whatever they are pacing themselves. They are going at about 60% cos they may have to fight for a long time, and seeing as they are matched up to a fighter of supposedly similar ability the chances are the fight will last.

[fire cobra]

Good posts from Ghost.

I remember the Kung Fu guys of the 1970s who went to Thailand to fight,they all got kod in rnd 1 or 2,they complained that it was because they had to wear gloves so couldnt do the finger gouges tiger claws etc,so the Thais said ok come back and fight gloveless(Thai boxers still wore gloves) guess what..The Kung Fu fighters all got knocked out the same way.

Does this make Kung Fu a bad Martial art? not at all,its just that the Thai fighters could clinch/kick and box effectively,the Kung Fu guys couldnt.

In the old styles of Muay Thai biting/butting etc were legal techniques(anything goes) imagine how effective those guys were!.

If you look at the chinese arts carefully,the potential for them to produce real effective fighters from most systems is massive,loads of real good technique,but the fact is they dont fight in most systems usually,and the training methods of the techniques leave a lot to be desired.

San Shou boxers are exceptions of course,however they have also integrated Thai Methods into there training.

[Ghost]

Yeah i think these are good points, especially how they train, i think they would end up ditching half the crap and perfecting all the good stuff in ways that isnt being done now due to lack of pressure.

Would be great to see kung fu evolve through pressure testing and see a really effective system based on all their techniques.

Might be something to do there fire cobra? a project for the future. learn kungfu then pressure test it and develop it.

Good posts from Ghost.

I remember the Kung Fu guys of the 1970s who went to Thailand to fight,they all got kod in rnd 1 or 2,they complained that it was because they had to wear gloves so couldnt do the finger gouges tiger claws etc,so the Thais said ok come back and fight gloveless(Thai boxers still wore gloves) guess what..The Kung Fu fighters all got knocked out the same way.

Does this make Kung Fu a bad Martial art? not at all,its just that the Thai fighters could clinch/kick and box effectively,the Kung Fu guys couldnt.

In the old styles of Muay Thai biting/butting etc were legal techniques(anything goes) imagine how effective those guys were!.

If you look at the chinese arts carefully,the potential for them to produce real effective fighters from most systems is massive,loads of real good technique,but the fact is they dont fight in most systems usually,and the training methods of the techniques leave a lot to be desired.

San Shou boxers are exceptions of course,however they have also integrated Thai Methods into there training.

[KenshiRyan]

The thing I get annoyed with is kung fu fighters always cling to the same old line about not being able to attack the soft tissue and the eyes, throat, groin, nerves other muscle attacks and joint attacks, pressure points, fish hooking the eyes and lips, I honestly dont get how attacking these points changes anything there is no secret technique to attacking them you dont need years of training to learn how to attack the points anyone can do it, Im not saying Kung fu is useless Im just saying I dont see how it has an edge over any other martial art just because they can attack some guys balls.

[peppi]

YouTube - Kung Fu & MMA

[jubaji]

This numbskull started the exact same thread on several different forums. In every case he made a fool of himself and was chased off in shame.

[fire cobra]

Yeah i think these are good points, especially how they train, i think they would end up ditching half the crap and perfecting all the good stuff in ways that isnt being done now due to lack of pressure.

Would be great to see kung fu evolve through pressure testing and see a really effective system based on all their techniques.

Might be something to do there fire cobra? a project for the future. learn kungfu then pressure test it and develop it.

I kinda did that when i was younger Ghost,

Its actually how i started Muay Thai,i was into Wing chun and went round the boxing gyms testing my standard,got my ears rang a few times but sharp learned what to do and gave the boxers some problems in that they couldnt understand what i was doing with the trapping.

Later i needed a new challenge so went to the Thai Boxing gym(which i had to travel 2 hours to get to) and tried to do the same,this time i was getting neck kicked and kneed quite a bit! any way i fell in love with Muay Thai,the smell of the oil,the colours in the gym,the music and the technique,that was it!.

Kept up my Wng Chun training but gradually did more and more Muay Thai.

I also did a couple of years Choy Lee Fut,now there is a style with lots of potential to have great fighters.

Sorry this sounds like my life story! just wanted you to know i did pressure test myself and skills in those days,now? oh man im toooo old! it hurts!.

[TigerClaw]

To all, I will be back later, and I hope to get into it with some here.

By the way I am not talking about standing up fighting, I know that many Kung Fu masters could easily handle themselves that way. I am talking about ground fighting and grappling situations.

Also I am refering to the best in Kung Fu, not a junior who gave up on his form fighting and became a kick boxer. These men or women to me are not even kung fu fighters even if they studied a year or two in kung fu. To fight as a Kung Fu fighter you need to fight in form,

And for the slanderous, gossip and lies that jubjai has been spreading, that is not true. I was never chased off in shame. I spoke the truth as in here. Just read my quotes at the beginning from the experts and I suggest you not slander or attack with hideous lies any more. But since you have done this the scond time, speak on that all may know your lack of knowledge in this area.

[Ghost]

To all, I will be back later, and I hope to get into it with some here.

By the way i am not talking about standing up fighting, I know that many Kung Fu masters could easily handle themselves that way. I am talking about ground fighting and grappling situations.

Also I am refering to the best in Kung Fu, not a junior who gave up on his form fighting and became a kick boxer. These men or women to me are not even kung fu fighters even if they studied a year or two in kung fu. To fight as a Kung Fu fighter you need to fight in form,

And for the slanderous, gossip and lies that jubjai has been spreading, that is not true. I was never chased off in shame. I spoke the truth as in here. Just read my quotes atthe beginning from the experts and I suggest you not slander or attack with hideous lies any more. But since you have done this the scond time, speak on that all may know your lack of knowledge in this area.

ok mate, post up when you get some time.

[Ghost]

Yeah choy lee fut looks pretty good. Youve done a lot in your time, great stuff.Do you still retain any of the kung fu knowledge and would you say youd use any of it still in self defense?

I kinda did that when i was younger Ghost,

Its actually how i started Muay Thai,i was into Wing chun and went round the boxing gyms testing my standard,got my ears rang a few times but sharp learned what to do and gave the boxers some problems in that they couldnt understand what i was doing with the trapping.

Later i needed a new challenge so went to the Thai Boxing gym(which i had to travel 2 hours to get to) and tried to do the same,this time i was getting neck kicked and kneed quite a bit! any way i fell in love with Muay Thai,the smell of the oil,the colours in the gym,the music and the technique,that was it!.

Kept up my Wng Chun training but gradually did more and more Muay Thai.

I also did a couple of years Choy Lee Fut,now there is a style with lots of potential to have great fighters.

Sorry this sounds like my life story! just wanted you to know i did pressure test myself and skills in those days,now? oh man im toooo old! it hurts!.