dangers of flakey teachers and the rise of internet fu

[TigerClaw]

In the examples you've posted, your opponents are not resisting, and they are not skilled in the arts you compare kung fu to in these threads. So all they demonstrate is a technique, but not the situation.

I have seen many pictures in magazines, both Kung Fu and MMA magazines where all we have to go by is pictures of how the technique is done. This is a forum and the pictures show clear applications.

Really? So why on earth do you continue to post in these futile discussions across several threads - each of which now number in the 100's. You say you have nothing to prove, but submit post after post in which you try to do just that.

Like I said I enjoy to discuss techniques and other aspects of Kung Fu etc. And I find it very useful and I hope helpful o those that are not biased or who are actually interested in Kung Fu's answer to the MMA grappling questions. Also, i like to expose liars and those who really don't know what they are talking about. I do this in hope that they will change their thinking and I hope that those who are new to martial arts, particularly Kung Fu, will continue on in Kung Fu and learn how to apply the many techniques for every situation.

What I mean by I don't care, is towards men like Ben Grimm, or Jubagi, who , even after having ample prof of things still persist in attacking and denying. I don't care if they really believe who i am or that i really am a Kung Fu teacher. But I persist in answering them to expose them as liars. To be exposed as a liar and to be humbled publically is good for the soul, if they will learn from it and change.

The fact is that you make strong claims, then refuse to back them up and then get upset when people don't believe you. There's a simple solution. Stop posting arguments you cannot verify, or provide demonstrations in a more realistic setting.

I back up almost all I say, I have shown pictures, videos, flyers, pictures of some of my instructors, and my students, etc etc. And my attackers have shown nothing. They make claims and show no techniques or pictures or videos etc.

As far as the claims I make about grappling, I showed only a small sample of escapes, and they are rock hard, solid escapes and very effective in combat. I backed up my techniques and my whole attitude towards grapplers with some experts I quoted from the martial arts world who agree with me. I also posted video clips and discussion about women in self defense situations which, I though proved my point clearly. But, what some mean by, me proving things in here, is that they want me to pick a fight with a MMA guy and use my deadly techniques on them. Those who ask for such things are , In my opinion, the worst kind of martial artist, they are scrappers and violent people. I am never going to do this, ever.

But as far as a strong kick in the groin against a grappling attacker not working, let me say, it works. And all the other vital strikes I mentioned, they works also. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out. But again every defense has to have proper technique to make it work right.

I believe that one of the reasons that some may contnue to mock and attack me and to lie, is because they have commited themself already to it and they have been rebuked openly by me and rightly so. To admit they were entirely wrong after all that has been said will make them look real bad. Thier pride and arogance will not allow them to admit to their error and to be shamed publically in here. So they persist , unreasonable in attacking me.

Also, some are really ignorant about what Kung Fu has to offer and they have a wrong misunderstanding of what Kung Fu is. They think Kung Fu is weak, flowery, soft and not good for fighting and that it is more of a dance and for form and exercise. They also think that MMA sport fighting on TV with the rules etc., is better because it has aggressive attackers and they see blood etc. They may see these men as rough fighters who fight realistically. So any Kung Fu teacher that even for a second, implies that the TV sport fighting of MMA is not as combative as the real life survival combat Kung Fu, they take issue with and immediately attack. Most of their attacks, however are unfounded against me.

Some may have also seen one or two of those pathetic videos on the net, where the so called "Kung Fu man" was fighting a Brazillian jujitsu fighter and how he got beat, as gracie talks in the background. They may mistakenly think that that was kung Fu. Let me tell you, I saw no kung Fu at all in that fight, or the few others I have seen on the net.

So I have set out to encourage those who want real self defense to take another look at kung Fu, from a different perspective and consider it.

[sunwukung]

I have seen many pictures in magazines, both Kung Fu and MMA magazines where all we have to go by is pictures of how the technique is done. This is a forum and the pictures show clear applications.

I don't think you're grasping what I'm getting at.

The specific problem is that those demonstrations are drilled, rehearsed, compliant. The vital element that requires proof is kung-fu applied against an MMA style fighter IN A NON-COMPLIANT SCENARIO.

It's one thing to demonstrate an arm-bar or a parry in the context of a drill, another thing entirely to demonstrate it against an opponent that is trying to take your head off.

It doesn't have to be a 'real fight', sparring would do. You don't have to kick them in the nuts or claw their eyes out either. I'm just interested in seeing 'form-fighting' under RELATIVELY realistic conditions.

Put it this way, say I went to a boxing class, and the teacher showed the boxing techniques, but then refused to demonstrate them in the ring, I'd be very wary of trusting this teacher. For the same reason, I'm very wary of trusting what you have to say. This is partly because, despite it's vast repertoire of techniques, there are virtually no traditionalists who succeed in MMA competition (let alone enter one).

They make claims and show no techniques or pictures or videos etc.

You're the one talking about the kung fu difference - it's up to you to demonstrate that. We've been over this.

But, what some mean by, me proving things in here, is that they want me to pick a fight with a MMA guy and use my deadly techniques on them. Those who ask for such things are , In my opinion, the worst kind of martial artist, they are scrappers and violent people. I am never going to do this, ever.

That's ridiculous. There are many,many,many competitive kung fu events - san shou, lei tai etc. They feature grappling, full contact etc. If the people that invented kung fu don't mind a scrap - then what's your problem. Looks like you've learnt that other great lesson from the chinese masters..."saving face".

I believe that one of the reasons that some may contnue to mock and attack me and to lie, is because they have commited themself already to it and they have been rebuked openly by me and rightly so.

It's not that mate, it's because you're a broken record, you write a LOT of text, but say very little. You talk about past deeds, amazing feats - but interesting as they are (i.e: not very) they are of NO USE in this debate, since without proof they are just padding.

They think Kung Fu is weak, flowery, soft and not good for fighting and that it is more of a dance and for form and exercise.

Despite the fact that most of them practice Kung fu?? Haven't you worked that out yet? It's not kung fu that is in question, it's YOU.

So any Kung Fu teacher that even for a second, implies that the TV sport fighting of MMA is not as combative as the real life survival combat Kung Fu, they take issue with and immediately attack.

The simple truth is they haven't seen a kung fu master walk into a ring and defeat an opponent in the classic kung fu fashion, and there have been NHB bouts around for ages which are open venues for them to do so. Lei tai bouts look amateurish by comparison.

Kung Fu suffers from "saving face", lots of teachers spouting great powers but refusing to test them publicly (unless they have a clear advantage). If you've trained in China, you'll see a lot of it. As a result, a lot of people learn kung fu in a weak and compliant, drilled environment, and so it becomes diluted and untested, theoretical not practical.
In contrast, traditions like Kyokushinkai, Boxing, Judo etc are taught full contact and so their arts are kept lively and useful. The truth is that most people who learn self defense in a non competitive environment don't want to get hit, and are inevitably weaker fighters than those that are willing to endure that kind of pain in pursuit of skill.

I saw no kung Fu at all in that fight, or the few others I have seen on the net.

And thus - like Bigfoot - it is hard to believe it exists. I have no doubt strong kung fu exists, but I think cultural factors and a western love of chinese oriental fantasy and a dislike for getting hit have made it very, very rare.

[Ben Grimm]

It's a shame. But it's true. CMA is more or less seen as contemporary wushu and just form based. Forms have applications, but it's not in the form fighting that TC is explaining. He only has a small part of the picture. Doesn't sound much like a teacher to me, just a LARPer wannabe.

[TigerClaw]

Put it this way, say I went to a boxing class, and the teacher showed the boxing techniques, but then refused to demonstrate them in the ring, I'd be very wary of trusting this teacher. For the same reason, I'm very wary of trusting what you have to say. This is partly because, despite it's vast repertoire of techniques, there are virtually no traditionalists who succeed in MMA competition (let alone enter one).

By the way, I have seen my one of my instructors fight very powerfully in combat and he also fought on the ground. He often demonstrated the techniques he taught. And we would often spar very hard and aggressive, on hard floors. There was no play fighting or rehersed fighting, except for two man techniques.

I also demonstrate the techniques I teach. Even tonight, when I taught a class, I had my students attack me fast and without rehersing it. When they see that I can counter their attacks they know that what I teach works. This is often how I teach.


But as far as Kung Fu men entering MMA competitions, you won't find many Kung Fu men entering Judo competitions either or boxing competitions. The whole set up is different, different rules and styles etc.

The simple truth is they haven't seen a kung fu master walk into a ring and defeat an opponent in the classic kung fu fashion,

Well, like I said, its the forum and rules and whole set up that hinders Kung Fu application. Besides, I personally have no interest in picking fights for this purpose, I only teach my students to fight for defense and helping others, not for vainglory or in a scrapping situation. I know that may seem like a cop out, but to me it isn't. If they want ti test out their techniques they can do it in the club. Also, thee may be many schools that will not try to their techniques out against other schools, they don't just go around challenging the masters etc.

As a result, a lot of people learn kung fu in a weak and compliant, drilled environment, and so it becomes diluted and untested, theoretical not practical.

Well, thats not the way I learned. I am thankful for the invention of groin cups during those years. But I still had the wind knocked out of me at times and other things. There are many Kung Fu schools that have full contact sparing and are very aggressive in their training.

In contrast, traditions like ...Boxing... are taught full contact and so their arts are kept lively and useful.

Even boxers wear the large gloves and don't kick in the vitals or have many , many , many other moves that kung Fu fighters have. In fact there are only a handful of techniques in boxing, all of which are covered in some for in Kung Fu, and kung Fu adds many , many more techniques and counters to the arsenal. In Boxing, there are so many things that you cannot do. Why, even a quick snap kick to the groin is illegal. And yet that is basic in kung Fu, or a double swinging type strike where the guard is taken down by the leading hand and the other hand follow through and strikes behind the head. these type of powerful striking motions are not allowed in Boxing and can really damage the opponent. In kung Fu we also have to learn to "pull our strikes, so as not to seriously hurt the opponent. There is a great difference in fighting Kung Fu than Boxing or judo etc.

This is why, even in sparing Kung Fu practitioners ned to demonstrate control and pull their techniques. Imagine a full contact kung Fu fight where there is no pulling of techniques and it is all out full contact. You would have broken knee joints, broken arms, necks, eye gouges, crushed groins, hard leopard strikes to the throat, broken ribs, spine, fingers etc. And yes, Kung Fu is that dangerous. I don't care what some say when I mention this. There are reasons we cannot fight full contact with Kung Fu techniques. yes we can hand have sparred with gloves on also and head gear and foot protection etc. But this kind of sparing many Kung Fu clubs have, it is full contact to a degree. but it still limits the use of many kung fu techniques. So real full contact Kung Fu fighting without gloves, or groin cups, or head gear or foot gear, would be unreasonable for sparring.

The truth is that most people who learn self defense in a non competitive environment don't want to get hit, and are inevitably weaker fighters than those that are willing to endure that kind of pain in pursuit of skill.

No, the truth is that they don't want to get killed. But the way I learned, we still got hurt often and we did spar very hard and it even went to the ground at times.

But, just because we need to spar with discipline and pull our techniques and even wear protective gear at times, does not mean that the Kung Fu won't work. I think that is an unwise assumption that some might make.

[Ben Grimm]

TC, I have some e-books. The originals were written a long time ago. They show boxing with throws. If you'd like PM me your email address and I'll send them to you. This is no joke.

[sunwukung]

And yet that is basic in kung Fu, or a double swinging type strike where the guard is taken down by the leading hand and the other hand follow through and strikes behind the head. these type of powerful striking motions are not allowed in Boxing and can really damage the opponent. In kung Fu we also have to learn to "pull our strikes, so as not to seriously hurt the opponent. There is a great difference in fighting Kung Fu than Boxing or judo etc.

Maybe boxing, but what about karate, or jujitsu (where they apply locks in a full contact situation?) Is there really such a difference between SanShou or Lei Tai and any other competitive sparring? They don't appear to be injured in the way you describe - chin na techniques don't automatically break joints, so it should be possible to execute them in sparring.

we did spar very hard and it even went to the ground at times. But, just because we need to spar with discipline and pull our techniques and even wear protective gear at times, does not mean that the Kung Fu won't work. I think that is an unwise assumption that some might make.

So then why don't you just do some of this hard sparring and demo some of your takedowns/getouts from grappling? As you yourself said, there are thousands of techniques, but you keep referring to vital strikes and eye gouges, can't you find anything in this limitless repertoire that can be used without maiming your sparring partner?

[TigerClaw]

So then why don't you just do some of this hard sparring and demo some of your takedowns/getouts from grappling?

In Boxing and MMA fighting there are limited techniques that are used. I know some will take issue with this statement, but it is true. In boxing there are five moves or so, and in MMA there are a great many more. But all the techniques are limited to work in a full contact environment of a sport situation. It is easy to go full contact because these moves, and with the gloves on it is not as dangerous as the many kung fu moves without gloves. In Kung fu many of the techniques can only be done without gloves, such as grabbing, locking, or trapping arms, spearing techniques, clawing techniques locking the head, neck etc. Also there are many breaking techniques that are used in Kung Fu. If we strip out all the very dangerous techniques of kung fu then it would not be a good representation of a Kung Fu technique.

So when doing sparing it is needful to PULL techniques (or to hold back the full contact strike), as I said before. If a Kung Fu man got into the ring with a MMA fighter, or a boxer he may get into a sprawling, grappling situation and quickly flare his fingers at the eyes of the opponent, or do a pheonix strike at his temple etc., but he would pull the technique or else serious injury would follow. The other fighter would not consider this a real attack, because he is unhurt, so he continues to grapple to the ground,[/COLOR] if he can, and as he does this the Kung Fu man locks his head and just slightly twist the neck, (pulling his technique so he does not break the neck), but the grappler does not feel the full contact and he is unhurt so he just keeps going on in his technique, then the Kung Fu man is on the ground and he sees a opening at the groin and he attacks there but pulls his technique so as not to seriously hurt the opponent, yet the grappler only recoils slightly at the attack and he is unhurt so he continues to attack. Then the Kung Fu man sees an opening at the throat and attack it, but pulls his clawing technique so as not to seriously hurt the grappler and the grappler does not feel hurt so he ignores it and attacks more, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

So in this situation, we can see that the grappler would have been seriously hurt many times if not dead in combat. But because he did not feel the full force of the attack, he assumes it did not work on him and so he continues. That is sort of how things work out in real fighting full contact and real fighting sport . I understand that the fights are SPORT and not real life SURVIVAL COMBAT. But I think that is part of the problem. When you ask a combative fighter who thinks and trains for survival to forget all that and just jump into a totally different kind of fighting environment and fight SPORT fighting with many rules and restrictions, this is different.

But against a grappler outside of the ring, many times the fight will not get to the ground as I believe. There are many Kung Fu techniques that are available from a stand up position. But if it does go to the ground, it depends on how skilled each person is in real combat situations. Not sport fighting, but combat fighting. many times it will be whoever can get to the vitals first, or the breaks etc.

As you yourself said, there are thousands of techniques, but you keep referring to vital strikes and eye gouges, can't you find anything in this limitless repertoire that can be used without maiming your sparring partner?

Against the average in experienced fighter/grappler a Kung Fu practitioner should have many resources to overcome him and the fight will not even go to the ground at times. But against a professional grappler who has perfected his grappling, that is where the many vital strikes come into play. Especially in a life threatening situation.

Also, I have no desire to go and challenge other schools or MMA schools or karate schools. I am not like a some Bruce Lee character in the Chinese Connection where he goes into a karate schools or MMA schools and takes them all on. I am not concerned, threatened or bothered if others practice their own styles, thats good. And as far as comparing which style would work better, that really depends on the man in it, and how he has mastered his own body and techniques.

[Ben Grimm]

Well I doubt you'll ever be able to do that, clown.

[jubaji]

You are lucky that I am not a moderator

Don't think I don't tell myself that everyday.






Lighten up ol' fella, you'll get the idea soon enough.

[jubaji]

Also, I have no desire to go and challenge other schools or MMA schools or karate schools. .

I'm sure you don't, because you have no desire to have both your illusions and your ass broken.

[Inufreak]

I'm sure you don't, because you have no desire to have both your illusions and your ass broken.

LOL it's funny because it's true.

[TigerClaw]

I'm sure you don't, because you have no desire to have both your illusions and your ass broken.

No, that has nothing to do with it. I am not concerned if I am better or worse than other fighters, I don't study martial arts for that reason. My intention is not for vain glory and ego. I study for the love of the art and self defense and to help others if needed.

To me fighting is the last resort, a soft answer, kindness, moral character patience and wisdom are all far more important in any situation than the fighting part.

Go talk to a good police officer and you should hear similar. But that does not mean they will not and cannot defend themselves and others very well.

And, by the way I have been smashed enough and hurt in my training, this is not a fear for me.

[jubaji]

No, that has nothing to do with it.

I believe you thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis much.

[Inufreak]

Okay who the HELL was it who gave me negative rep for thinking something was funny???
I CAN THINK WHAT EVER the H@LL I WANT TO THINK IS FUNNY! There no yes or no to whether I think it funny!!!

[JadeDragon]

What did you think was funny???