can kung fu work in real fighting????

[jmd161]

This sounds more like contemporary wu shu rather than traditional wu shu. I use the term wu shu because it fits better than the term kung fu. Kung fu means having skill at something. This could mean cooking, carpentry, etc...

Anyways getting back to the topic.....traditional wu shu should not be just all about forms. Most of the Shaolin Kung Fu that is taught today is watered down with forms with flips, aerials, etc.... (this is contemporary wu shu)

I might be wrong here, but Jade Dragon aren't you a CMA sifu/teacher?

If so... aren't you the same Jade Dragon that teaches that was asking in a thread at the D-list how to apply a technique from a form to people on the forum?


jeff

[Tant01]

Small virtual world, eh?

[JadeDragon]

I might be wrong here, but Jade Dragon aren't you a CMA sifu/teacher?

If so... aren't you the same Jade Dragon that teaches that was asking in a thread at the D-list how to apply a technique from a form to people on the forum?
jeff

To answer your question...... Yes, I am the same Jade Dragon and yes I was asking a question about a move in a form (Gung Li Chuan). I was left to determine the application on my own. I was not shown exactly what the move was used for so I came up with an application of my own for that particular move. I was asking if anyone knew exactly what the move was used for.

[jmd161]

To answer your question...... Yes, I am the same Jade Dragon and yes I was asking a question about a move in a form (Gung Li Chuan). I was left to determine the application on my own. I was not shown exactly what the move was used for so I came up with an application of my own for that particular move. I was asking if anyone knew exactly what the move was used for.

I'm going to ask questions not to start a war, but just to ask the obvious.

Where is the sifu who taught you the form, and why didn't/ don't you ask him/her?


I know some sifu want you to figure out some techniques on your own sometime without just blindly following them..my sifu is like that, but he will always show you multiple uses for a single technique.

jeff

[TigerClaw]

I don't have to agree with someone or even like them to quote them. Many foolish people have said something of impotence in their lives. Cam and I don't see eye to eye on CMA, but it doesn't make him a bad guy. Like many people all he's seen is the crap end of CMA, so that's what he basis his stand off. If every so called master you saw sucked.... what else would you think?

Anyone that knows me knows I stand for CMA, but I will call out crappy CMA when I see It. I'm not going to lower my standards just to uplift CMA. That's what got us to the point we are now. So many fake sages telling you bullcrap and that the greatest master is the one that doesn't fight. My sifu and sigung both learned kung fu with one thing and one thing only in mind To FIGHT!


How can someone that has never fought teach you to fight?

simple answer They Can't!!!!

jeff

I study martial arts, to learn how to fight and defend myself and others. It just makes it more wonderful when the forms are so beautiful and graceful.

[jubaji]

I study martial arts, to learn how to fight and defend myself and others. It just makes it more wonderful when the forms are so beautiful and graceful.

You're an idiot.

[pstevens]

You know as a kid, I watched “Kung-fu Theatre” and became a fanatic. At age 5, I was enrolled at Master Lin’s Kung-fu School in Columbus, OH. I loved it and ate it up; from the controlled sparring to the beautiful stances. We learned tai chi, choylifut and some hungar. Ah, the memories…

The fact is, there are many flaws within traditional kung-fu training. First, is the over-emphasis on forms training. Second, very little “live” training or realistic training, for that matter. And finally, most styles are entrenched in their own mythos.

I recall practicing the “Five Wheel Fist” set from Choylifut for hours at my Master’s bequest because it provided a foundation for stances, blocks and counters. Forms, forms and more forms training. Few people even knew how the forms could help them fight. Yet, they were the basis from which we were supposed to learn to fight.

There was no “live” sparring; all sparring was pre-arranged sections of forms. The forms WERE the fighting applications; we just needed to master them. So more forms training.

Then there was the “chi.” This could only be cultivated through long hours of static stance training, correct breathing and voice (kia or shout). After all, the Great Masters of Old could scale walls, break bricks without touching them, etc…

What I learned about kung-fu was that many styles were passed along for generations without ever having been combat tested. Some were just off-shoots of others. But it was tradition and in Chinese culture, this meant preservation.

The real China, I learned was not like the movies. People didn’t walk around, everyone equipped with their special kung-fu style, ready to fly into action at a moment’s notice. In reality, most people didn’t know or care to know kung-fu, or martial arts. But with over 5 billion Chinese, a small percentage makes up a lot. However, like any other country, real combat involved weapons.

My point being, there’s no magic pill in martial arts; even the ones that profess to teach you the secrets to success. Even BJJ, which I enjoy deeply, began as propaganda by the Gracies. There is no ultimate martial art; you just have to find out what works for you. However, most techniques that will work have worked for many people and in realistic arenas. Therefore, stick to those and develop them.

[jmd161]

You know as a kid, I watched “Kung-fu Theatre” and became a fanatic. At age 5, I was enrolled at Master Lin’s Kung-fu School in Columbus, OH. I loved it and ate it up; from the controlled sparring to the beautiful stances. We learned tai chi, choylifut and some hungar. Ah, the memories…

The fact is, there are many flaws within traditional kung-fu training. First, is the over-emphasis on forms training. Second, very little “live” training or realistic training, for that matter. And finally, most styles are entrenched in their own mythos.

I recall practicing the “Five Wheel Fist” set from Choylifut for hours at my Master’s bequest because it provided a foundation for stances, blocks and counters. Forms, forms and more forms training. Few people even knew how the forms could help them fight. Yet, they were the basis from which we were supposed to learn to fight.

There was no “live” sparring; all sparring was pre-arranged sections of forms. The forms WERE the fighting applications; we just needed to master them. So more forms training.

Then there was the “chi.” This could only be cultivated through long hours of static stance training, correct breathing and voice (kia or shout). After all, the Great Masters of Old could scale walls, break bricks without touching them, etc…

What I learned about kung-fu was that many styles were passed along for generations without ever having been combat tested. Some were just off-shoots of others. But it was tradition and in Chinese culture, this meant preservation.

The real China, I learned was not like the movies. People didn’t walk around, everyone equipped with their special kung-fu style, ready to fly into action at a moment’s notice. In reality, most people didn’t know or care to know kung-fu, or martial arts. But with over 5 billion Chinese, a small percentage makes up a lot. However, like any other country, real combat involved weapons.

My point being, there’s no magic pill in martial arts; even the ones that profess to teach you the secrets to success. Even BJJ, which I enjoy deeply, began as propaganda by the Gracies. There is no ultimate martial art; you just have to find out what works for you. However, most techniques that will work have worked for many people and in realistic arenas. Therefore, stick to those and develop them.

Pretty good post and I agree with a lot of it to a degree. China was not as bad as movies have made it out to be, but it was not a nice place either. There were gangs and tongs and warlords that existed and did try to rule with a iron fist many cultures have had the same. The problem is that the best thing to happen to kung fu may have also led to it's demise.

That was Bruce Lee!

I won't get into how good he was or wasn't. He helped introduce the west and much of the world to CMA. That led to many wanting to learn CMA and seeking out Chinese martial arts teachers. Thus the problem....like Bruce Lee many a so called master was nothing but a novice themselves and realized they could make money off a naive public. Most real masters did not want to teach anything to the much bigger and stronger Americans. Many received threats for teaching to people other than their own kind.

Many westerners figured if you looked Chinese or Asian you had to know kung fu...

jeff

[Ben Grimm]

Even in China, it still happens to some degree.

[jubaji]

Waaaaay off

But with over 5 billion Chinese, a small percentage makes up a lot.

LOL. Not quite that many. China is populous, but not that populous!

[TigerClaw]

The fact is, there are many flaws within traditional kung-fu training. First, is the over-emphasis on forms training. Second, very little “live” training or realistic training, for that matter. And finally, most styles are entrenched in their own mythos.

I recall practicing the “Five Wheel Fist” set from Choylifut for hours at my Master’s bequest because it provided a foundation for stances, blocks and counters. Forms, forms and more forms training. Few people even knew how the forms could help them fight. Yet, they were the basis from which we were supposed to learn to fight.

There was no “live” sparring; all sparring was pre-arranged sections of forms. The forms WERE the fighting applications; we just needed to master them. So more forms training.

What I learned about kung-fu was that many styles were passed along for generations without ever having been combat tested. Some were just off-shoots of others. But it was tradition and in Chinese culture, this meant preservation.

Forms are fondational in Kung Fu. If they are from a good system, that has been combat tested , which many kung fu style have been. The advantage of using forms is not that you are going to always have situations exactly like the forms. But that they teach you stances body mechanics, flow of movement, coordination, speed power etc.

The forms are like the alphabet, you learn the letters first then you make words and sentences. All forms are made to be mixed up and used with other techniques from forms. If this is not taught to the students, then they do not understand the fantastic applications for forms. When student masters the systems forms, they will be able to fight from a mixture of the different forms.

Two man forms are also very useful. Unfortunately many schools do not have two man forms, or sparring sets. Practicing these sets often helps to develope what I call, form fighting. You learn how to move in stances and with the techniques from the style. When we have practiced these in our club, I have noticed the free sparing improves alot.

The different styles have such a variety to choose from against all kinds of fighters.

For example, if I was fighting a person who was a slower strong opponent and who did not use fast jabs and hand strikes like a boxer. There are many techniques that work great against them and certain styles become more effective.

But if I am fighting a boxer who has fast jabs and his hands are jerky and quick. I would use other styles, like the snake style or mantis. Or I would incorporate many kicks from various forms, or sweeping techniques.

The great advantage to Kung Fu over other styles like boxing is that Kung Fu has a massive arsenal, and the techniques are seldom seen by many in the west. The element of surprise and unusual fighting applications, will confuse the boxer..

There are so many other aspects of good kung fu that i could mention, like weight distribution in attack and stances, and angles of attack, trapping techniques etc etc etc.

[JadeDragon]

I'm going to ask questions not to start a war, but just to ask the obvious.
Where is the sifu who taught you the form, and why didn't/ don't you ask him/her?


I know some sifu want you to figure out some techniques on your own sometime without just blindly following them..my sifu is like that, but he will always show you multiple uses for a single technique.

jeff

Well, I'll answer your obvious question........My sifu moved away back in 2001 to his hometown of Boston. In 2007 he moved to China due to business. If he were here I would ask him. He only comes back once in a blue moon to visit.

[jmd161]

Forms are foundational in Kung Fu. If they are from a good system, that has been combat tested , which many kung fu style have been. The advantage of using forms is not that you are going to always have situations exactly like the forms. But that they teach you stances body mechanics, flow of movement, coordination, speed power etc.

The forms are like the alphabet, you learn the letters first then you make words and sentences. All forms are made to be mixed up and used with other techniques from forms. If this is not taught to the students, then they do not understand the fantastic applications for forms. When student masters the systems forms, they will be able to fight from a mixture of the different forms.

Two man forms are also very useful. Unfortunately many schools do not have two man forms, or sparring sets. Practicing these sets often helps to develop what I call, form fighting. You learn how to move in stances and with the techniques from the style. When we have practiced these in our club, I have noticed the free sparing improves a lot.

I can honestly say that this is the best post I have read of yours thus far. I'll admit I haven't read much of your post, but this one makes some sense. I agree with a lot of what you're saying in the above section of your post. Forms are a guide... like I've stated before. They are there to show the student many things, but it also takes a good sifu to show a student how to properly dissect forms. More important than a good sifu is a Good student. If the student themselves are not ready to be taught... there is nothing the greatest teacher in the world can teach them.

Many styles have been combat tested, the problem is not the style. The problem is that many a sifu has not been combat tested. Just because you learned a set of combat techniques does not make one a solider. In ancient time you had to depend on your skill for survival, that is not the case in modern times. It's easy for a novice to learn some techniques practice for a small amount of time, and then look as if they have skill. It's not until that novice is tested, that the truth is revealed.

The different styles have such a variety to choose from against all kinds of fighters. For example, if I was fighting a person who was a slower strong opponent and who did not use fast jabs and hand strikes like a boxer. There are many techniques that work great against them and certain styles become more effective. But if I am fighting a boxer who has fast jabs and his hands are jerky and quick. I would use other styles, like the snake style or mantis. Or I would incorporate many kicks from various forms, or sweeping techniques.

The great advantage to Kung Fu over other styles like boxing is that Kung Fu has a massive arsenal, and the techniques are seldom seen by many in the west. The element of surprise and unusual fighting applications, will confuse the boxer..

This has truth, but is not totally true. How many different styles do you think masters use to know? The answer is far less than you may think. Most masters barely knew their own style completely much less many other styles. The average master usually just mastered 1-4 sets of their chosen style. This does not mean they only new 1-4 forms, but that they truly worked these forms and knew them inside out. It takes yrs of very hard work and training to truly master a form. Because one is a master within a style does not mean they have mastered that style. That is why the journey in kung fu is considered a life long journey. Many people believe that theses masters were like the movies and would switch from tiger to monkey to snake as needed to beat an opponent, that is far from the truth. While many styles do have animal sets... they were not used in quite that manor.

There are so many other aspects of good kung fu that i could mention, like weight distribution in attack and stances, and angles of attack, trapping techniques etc etc etc.

The problem is, these are not separate, but go hand and hand with learning anything within kung fu. You must learn all these things in your basics, If you lack any of this...then you're building your skill on a weak foundation. The most important thing in learning kung fu is the basics, most people never train the basics much less master the basics. The average person has the Mc Donald's fast food mentality, they want everything now. You know how many people come to me asking me to teach them monkey style techniques...yet don't want to take the time to even practice horse stance?

These are the same people that go to different schools learn a form or two and later call themselves sifu and open a school teaching the half arse kung fu they've learned...having never actually learned any real kung fu or taking the time to at least master the basics. A black sash / black belt is supposed to signify a basic understanding of the basics, so the real training can begin. Most take it as the end of their journey and not just the start.


jeff

[jmd161]

Well, I'll answer your obvious question........My sifu moved away back in 2001 to his hometown of Boston. In 2007 he moved to China due to business. If he were here I would ask him. He only comes back once in a blue moon to visit.

Ok, that makes sense.

Have you sought out another sifu in the time since your sifu moved away?


I'm sure Kentucky is a hot bed of CMA (joke) I know it must be hard...I don't know anything about Kentucky. I don't mean to come down on you or seem as if I'm attacking you. It took me many many yrs of training and looking to find my sifu, and he was right under my nose for yrs. My sifu was pretty much retired when I found him. It took me months to even get him to meet with and talk to me. I pretty much stalked my sifu until he agreed to meet with me and talk. Even after that, it was another 6 months of training with him before he would even consider me as a student of his.

I spent 2 1/2 yrs with my sifu before I even learned the opening bow/salute to our styles first form... Two and a half years to learn a bow...think about that for a minute, But I knew how to defend myself within two months of training with him. I had spent umpteen yrs learning CMA and only knew about 5 techniques I could pull off before meeting my sifu. Within two months I could make any technique I ever learned work. I'll be the first to admit I'm not a great student...I almost quit several times after starting to train with my sifu because the training was just too hard. The only reason I didn't quit was because my sifu teaches me for free. I felt so ashamed that I was giving up on someone that was taking their time to teach me what took him over 40 yrs to learn for free.


jeff

[TigerClaw]

[QUOTE=jmd161;318392] The problem is that many a sifu has not been combat tested. Just because you learned a set of combat techniques does not make one a solider. In ancient time you had to depend on your skill for survival, that is not the case in modern times. It's easy for a novice to learn some techniques practice for a small amount of time, and then look as if they have skill. It's not until that novice is tested, that the truth is revealed./QUOTE]

I can agree here that many may not have the fighting ability to use the forms right or they have not practiced enough or the right way etc.

This has truth, but is not totally true. How many different styles do you think masters use to know? The answer is far less than you may think. Most masters barely knew their own style completely much less many other styles. The average master usually just mastered 1-4 sets of their chosen style.

Well, this depends on what styles you are talking about. One style I know is the seven Star Praying Mantis style, and the founder knew seventeen styles of Kung Fu and had alot of fighting practice and against resistant opponents. In te Seven Star praying mantis style i know there are over 100 forms.

In Choy Li Fut, (another style I know) there are many forms as well, 90 or so. There were three masters that had part in this style.

If you are talking about Hung gar, which has not that many forms, of which i also know. The forms are so foundational and solid to Kung Fu that they give a very strong foundation in fighting. If you have read lam Sai Wings notes on theses forms he mixes the techniques up all over the place in application. But many of the movements from HunG gar will work very well in combat. They have Shaolin roots and centuries of application and actual war combat connected to them.

Again, with all this I have said, I can agree that the teacher and student are very important. Just learning a fighting style itself will not make you good.

Like one of my instructors use to say, "Kung Fu is only as good as the man in it"

And I agree that many want the quick fix today. But there is no short cut to being a Kung Fu fighter with true combat skills.

When I practice I try to learn how to fight against many different kinds of attackers. I may have a student who is good at boxing attack me with fast hands and blows. Then I need to react differently, to a person who uses alot of kicks etc etc etc. Last week I had a wrestler attack me with his style and in seconds he saw how he would have been seriously injured. he tried again and this time he went flying on his back. By the way he tried the shoot technique at me, and he was as fast as I have seen any person be, he was a skilled wrestler. But kung Fu worked perfectly against his fighting style. I have also had attacks from people who were kick boxers and very aggressive. the snake style worked very good with them, etc etc. I have had boxers come in as fast as they could trying to hit me, and with a few subtle blocks and attacks they were effortlessly overcome. Kung Fu works all the time if you use it right.

I don't want to say these things to boast, but to show that the kind of training and the techniques you use are very important.