An answer to Chi Sao's usefulness

[benneil]

The range in which is performed is very hard to maintain in actual combat.

I was reading the other thread about Chi Sao...and I also happened across a new WC website that address this issue.

Thought it would be interesting to start a new discussio (that other thread is very long now and veered off topic)

Wing Chun 3 Ranges Part II

3 Ranges of Our Wing Chun Part II
By John Paul

Short range is the range that is most associated with Wing Chun, even with those who are only remotely familiar with the style. This close range infighting is very advanced and can only be properly learned, practiced, and understood after the longer range concepts are fully grasped. This distance is also commonly known as trapping range. In Wing Chun we practice sticky hands, or chi sau for this.

The way my teacher taught me sticky hands is totally different from the other Wing Chun families that I have seen in person and on the internet.

First, the preliminary training for long range and mid range techniques teaches students in our family to close the gap, move in and "stick" to our opponent. Easier said than done. We spend a great deal of time perfecting our mobility, foot work, not wasting movements, stamina, speed, timing and agility.

This is the forward energy often mentioned in Wing Chun but hardly understood. Students in our family "bug the opponent like a bee or a fly or a hummingbird". Starting from a distance, as most confrontations do, and then ending up "too close for comfort to the opponent".

Every technique we use, every weapon we use, and every principle we follow carries this spirit. The close range principle is easily understood by soft style practitioners, but it seems to be mysterious to some Wing Chun artists. I will adress this later because it is very fundamental.

Once after sparring 3 or 4 people in a row, Sifu asked me, "Now, what do you think you can do better next time?" I thought for a second. Then I said,"Workout harder!", because I was completely out of breath. He said, "Hmm...no that's not it...once you get in, you don't know what to do!" At this point I am familiar with the long and medium ranges but the short range I have yet to master. We differ from other families of Wing Chun because we spend so much effort to close in, bypass the weapon and trap it that it puts our mind in a different place for applying finishing techniques. I don't see other families practice this. Im not speculating about their training per se, I mean that watching them fight they lose all other Wing Chun principles because they don't have this one.

My teacher says sticky hands is a fragmented part of Wing Chun training. There is more to Wing Chun than just that. As a result, Wing Chun has gotten a bad reputation for only looking good but with no practicality. That's why people try to mix it with Muay Thai or some other hard style of boxing when it comes to real fight training.

Totally incorrect.

Everyone who practices martial arts, has had a few fights, or is fairly intelligent when they start martial arts always gets the idea to take the best stuff from every style and create their own personal superstyle. In fact this is how martial arts evolves. But most people are not qualified to do this for one reason. In order to get the best from every style you practice requires years of training. But most people study only short while, or even worse they study for years but never fully grasp the principles and never master the style. So when they take from the style they only end up taking a few moves or techniques; never carrying with them the spirit, the essence of the style.

They dont get "the best stuff".

In our family one of our founders, Fung Siu Ching, incorporated Tai Chi grappling into our Wing Chun. Many people practice some form of Tai Chi and some form of Wing Chun and try to mix the two. So what makes ours different?

Well, Master Fung was well known to be a very experienced general, marshall and bounty hunter for the Qing. He had real hand to hand combat skill for most of his life. He knew Tai Chi grappling probably better than he knew his wife. It was in him, it was a part of him. A soft, internal style principle that is our Kung Fu is internal--its in your soul, your DNA. Many readers frown on the Wing Chun and Tai Chi relationship, and confuse us with some of the masters who add Tai Chi technigues into their Wing Chun techniques like adding apples and oranges together.

Some swear that Fung had studied Shaolin Crane Style (Shaolin practitioners have said this). Most of them have never heard that Ng Mui was from Aumei White Crane Cave (stated by the Master of White Eye Brow in a book called "Bak Mei Pi" and Master Sum Nung). The Aumei Pi style of Kung Fu is actually a family of many mixed styles of Shaolin and Wudong, by many masters of the two, over hundreds of years! It became a new fruit! Back to my point.

Closing the gap in our Wing Chun is similar to Xing Yi and Tai Chi principles. In both styles the master gets close. In Xing Yi they close in. In Tai Chi they allow the opponent to close in. We do similarly but still different. We move forward in a yielding manner. Once in close, short range, trapping range, the most deadly, powerful, accurate finishing blows are executed. In this range we also differ from other Wing Chun families because we emphasize much more stand up grappling, White Crane sweeping and throwing, take downs, and breaks.

[pstevens]

So you're using a WC article to prove the usefullness of Chi Sau? Defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

Anyway, you've taken my quote out of context. So let me explain: What I was implying was that the range in which you apply chi sau is hard to maintain (control, defend, counter, etc). This is because Chi Sau actually occurs at mid-range; yet not clinching, but close enough to get hit. That's why I believe it's more manageable to be very close or out of range.

That WCers can demonstrate the usefullness of chi sau says very little. Can chi sau work against a boxer, wrestler, BJJer, MMAist, etc?... Imagine yourself in close proximity with someone who has good hands. You're trying to trap, parry or counter while they're throwing hooks, uppercuts and straight rights. From my experience, you're more likely to get KTFO! The range in which this happens makes it almost impossible to react to combinations. You might want to stick hands, but the other guy's throwing combos or going for a takedown. You be the judge.

This is not to say that Chi Sau is completely useless. One SHOULD train for all ranges of combat. But it's common knowledge that within mid-range, offense almost always defeats defense and you can't stay there all day playing patti-cake. You're either there by default, or you've taken advantage of your opponent's mistake (slipped a punch).

[benneil]

im not proving anything. i wanted to discuss this.

but regarding what you said

Imagine yourself in close proximity with someone who has good hands. You're trying to trap, parry or counter while they're throwing hooks, uppercuts and straight rights.

chi sau makes any type of "blocking" more effective because of your sensitivity. once you make contact it allows you to know what they are going to do better than sight alone.

part of a fighters speed is reaction time and chi sau sensitivity allows you to react quicker to whatever they are doing whether it be trying to grapple or strike.

its ok you probably never learned any wing chun

[pstevens]

chi sau makes any type of "blocking" more effective because of your sensitivity. once you make contact it allows you to know what they are going to do better than sight alone.

Exactly, chi sau assumes you have contact with your arms. In fact, chi sau begins with arms touching, correct? But this isn’t the problem. The problem as I’ve said is RANGE. Within chi sau range, you are at a great… let me repeat, great disadvantage unless you’ve done one of two things:

1. Closed the gap and controlled your opponent; the clinch.
2. Slipped inside/outside to throw combinations.

Otherwise, if you’re sitting in that range for too long, you’re going to eat punches.

part of a fighters speed is reaction time and chi sau sensitivity allows you to react quicker to whatever they are doing whether it be trying to grapple or strike.

Yes, but this also had to do with RANGE. Here’s an exercise: get a partner to stand within arms reach, so he can reach out and punch you. Let him punch you anyway he likes and try to block/parry/trap or whatever you like. Trust me, he’ll get the better of you almost always. Now, try it within “live” sparring with someone who doesn’t do WC. Try to get in RANGE and chi sau them. I’ll be it’s much more difficult to stay in that range without getting walloped.

Your reaction speed increases as your opponent’s range increases. That’s because you have more time, considering he’s got more distance to cover. Within chi sau range, this is very difficult, but not impossible for short periods. Still the risks are greater than the rewards.

its ok you probably never learned any wing chun

True. I don’t do wing chun, but have come across it many times. I’ve met people who train WC and discussed, trained and sparred with them. Not one of them have ever used chi sau during sparring. Perhaps it was an isolated incident or the opportunity didn’t present itself… I don’t know.

What I do like about WC exists in its theory; specifically ideas about the center line. In defense, I like to parry my opponent’s attack away from the centerline and counter. The idea of a center line allows me to adjust to my opponent’s attacks through good positioning.

Anyway, I hope more people can contribute to this discussion based on their knowledge and experience.

Paul

[TTEscrima]

Try to get in RANGE and chi sau them.

True. I don’t do wing chun, but have come across it many times. I’ve met people who train WC and discussed, trained and sparred with them. Not one of them have ever used chi sau during sparring. Perhaps it was an isolated incident or the opportunity didn’t present itself…

I don’t know.

Well, at least you got that part right.

Chi Sau is an exercise/drill...you don't "Try to get in RANGE and chi sau them."

The reason no one tried to Chi Sau you during sparring is its a two person DRILL, it's not intended for sparring. Perhaps you ought to stop writing all these posts informing people about the CMA's because all you're doing is showing you don't have enough knowledge of the subject to even participate in a discussion much less educate others on the subject. Want to know whats wrong with the CMA's? People without any idea what they're talking about spreading what little knowledge they presume to posses like its gospel.

Geesh those darn Tai chi guys never push hands with their opponent when they're sparring or fighting either, whats up with those people, don't they know you have to push hands and Chi sau the boxers/ MMA guys!! Thank goodness someone came along from MMA to explain what we're all doing wrong.

[pstevens]

:Chi Sau is an exercise/drill...you don't "Try to get in RANGE and chi sau them."

And what rock did you crawl out from under?… Before you begin spouting your rhetoric, why don’t you try investigating the premise for which this debate began. This was my original statement regarding chi sao:

“In all honestly, chi sao is just an exercise. The range in which is performed is very hard to maintain in actual combat. There's something to be gained, but I wouldn't make it a focal point of combat training.”

In fact, I did say it was an “exercise.”

:The reason no one tried to Chi Sau you during sparring is its a two person DRILL, it's not intended for sparring. ..

Oh, you think? Really? [it’s called sarcasm, if you really must know]… Because I was told chi sao was an “exercise” intended to teach one how to react within that RANGE; so that when WC people were in that RANGE, they could perform the techniques, strategies, etc… If not, then please enlighten us with your profound knowledge of WC.

:Perhaps you ought to stop writing all these posts informing people about the CMA's because all you're doing is showing you don't have enough knowledge of the subject to even participate in a discussion much less educate others on the subject...

I didn’t realize my posts were so informational? I’m glad you thought they were. I was under the impression, I was merely giving my opinion on various CMA’s as I’ve experienced or witnessed them. Maybe I should publish a newsletter, eh?

But since you’re obviously an expert on the subject, why don’t you supply the rebuttal to my posts. I could use a good debate every now and then.

:Want to know whats wrong with the CMA's? People without any idea what they're talking about spreading what little knowledge they presume to posses like its gospel..

Actually the problems have been discussed thoroughly, so you can investigate on your own. However, if you had a problem with what was written, you should have intervened instead of venting about it later. You’re loss, not mine.

:Geesh those darn Tai chi guys never push hands with their opponent when they're sparring or fighting either, whats up with those people, don't they know you have to push hands and Chi sau the boxers/ MMA guys!! Thank goodness someone came along from MMA to explain what we're all doing wrong.

Well, shouldn’t they be about to push hands or chi sao? In boxing, you throw combinations all day, so you’d better know how to do in sparring. Let me suggest an idea that might be new to CMA, or maybe it’s just you - PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH!

Basically, you’re telling me that push-hands and chi sao are nothing more than drills that serve no other purpose. I beg to differ. They’re supposed to develop sensitivity, technique and correct movement that CAN BE applied to actual sparring. If not, please explain their purpose…

Yet, again we go back to the same idea I’ve been preaching (except this time, let me clarify); the RANGE in which chi sao drills/teaches/conceptualizes is VERY hard to maintain in actual combat. There’s my position, supply a rebuttal if you will.

Have a nice day.

Paul

[TTEscrima]

Well, shouldn’t they be about to push hands or chi sao? In boxing, you throw combinations all day, so you’d better know how to do in sparring.

ROFLMAO. Again you declare that since Chi Sau is used as an exercise it should be employed in the fight, or they should be "about to use it", keep digging, I haven't laughed this hard in ages.

Dang, now that I think of it, I've never bench pressed anyone in a fight or sparring, guess I better drop that from the training, never done a superman while sparring or fighting, wow, I've never squatted anyone either!! I never realized how many useless exercises there were!! OK folks listen up!! If it isn't used in sparring it serves no purpose according to Pstevens so knock it off, he doesn't approve!!

Basically, you’re telling me that push-hands and chi sao are nothing more than drills that serve no other purpose.

I'm telling you what any WC student with 1 week of class knows: Chi Sau is an exercise used to develop your tools and attributes, its an energy sensing drill...ITS NOT INTENDED FOR USE IN SPARRING OR COMBAT!! ONE PERSON CANNOT "CHI SAU" another who is not also doing the drill because it requires mutual cooperation and both parties have to know the exercise.

They’re supposed to develop sensitivity, technique and correct movement that CAN BE applied to actual sparring. If not, please explain their purpose…

Chi Sau is a drill that teaches you about the usage of the tools contained with WC, Tan Sau, Bong Sau, Pak Sau etc in a controlled environment.

Yet, again we go back to the same idea I’ve been preaching (except this time, let me clarify); the RANGE in which chi sao drills/teaches/conceptualizes is VERY hard to maintain in actual combat. There’s my position, supply a rebuttal if you will.

You can try to wiggle all you want, your posts made it clear you have little if any idea about WC or Chi Sau. You clearly stated no one tried to Chi sau you during sparring. Anyone who knows what Chi Sau is realizes just how uniformed and hysterical your statement is.

You're PREACHING (to use your own words) about a subject you have ZERO grasp of, so long as we're clear on that I don't need to supply a rebuttal. You made assessments and offered opinions on a subject you're clearly completely ignorant of.

It never ceases to amaze me the amount of time the MMA crowd dedicates to preaching about styles that they've never spent an hour in a class learning about before offering their opinion on how to fix them.

I thought your "Real History of the CMA's" thread was the best example of preaching about a subject you don't have a clue about until I saw this thread.

[pstevens]

ROFLMAO. Again you declare that since Chi Sau is used as an exercise it should be employed in the fight, or they should be about to use it, keep digging, I haven't laughed this hard in ages.:

You know very well what I meant. I was implying that the concepts within chi sao should be to be applied to live combat; just as combinations can be applied in boxing. Thus far, your attention to detail is incredible for a master of WC [sarcasm, again].

I'm telling you what any WC student with 1 week of class knows: Chi Sau is an exercise used to develop your tools and attributes, its an energy sensing drill...ITS NOT INTENDED FOR USE IN SPARRING OR COMBAT!! ONE PERSON CANNOT "CHI SAU" another who is not also doing the drill because it requires mutual cooperation and both parties have to know the exercise.:

Your telling me chi sao is a waste of valuable time that could be used to do other exercises that would help the cause of CMA. It’s obvious YOU are the one who has no understanding chi sau. Yes, a person cannot “chi sau” another person; because you’re taking my words too literally; therefore, forgive me if I need to make things more clear. However, the concepts of chi sau are SUPPOSED to apply to COMBAT. Therefore, if what you’re implying is that chi sau HAS NO COMBAT IMPLICATIONS, then my argument has already prevailed; chi sao is useless as it pertains to combat.

Please prove otherwise. You still haven’t argued my point.

Chi Sau is a drill that teaches you about the usage of the tools contained with WC, Tan Sau, Bong Sau, Pak Sau etc in a controlled environment. :

…And according to YOU, useless in combat applications.

You can try to wiggle all you want, your posts made it clear you have little if any idea about WC or Chi Sau. You clearly stated no one tried to Chi sau you during sparring. Anyone who knows what Chi Sau is realizes just how uniformed and hysterical your statement is. :

I’m not wriggling anything… The FACT is you haven’t shown any supposed knowledge regarding WC. I haven’t suggested that I was a master of WC either, but I pointed out 2 ideas that have yet to be refuted:

1. Chi sao is supposed to develop attributes that can be used in combat.
2. However, chi sao drills one to maintain a range which is unrealistic in combat.

You're PREACHING (to use your own words) about a subject you have ZERO grasp of, so long as we're clear on that I don't need to supply a rebuttal. You made assessments and offered opinions on a subject you're clearly completely ignorant of. :

Wow… My words have gone from “informational” to “gospel.” You ARE amazed!

Yes, I made a opinion based on my experiences with chi sao in another thread; and as you can see, my statement was used to begin this topic; so of course I was obligated to reply. This is a forum for debate, no?

Thus far, you haven’t enlightened anyone either… Your rebuttals are not needed, as everyone can see, they don’t exist and would serve no purpose.

It never ceases to amaze me the amount of time the MMA crowd dedicates to preaching about styles that they've never spent an hour in a class learning about before offering their opinion on how to fix them.:

It never ceases to amaze me the ignorance of people who take constructive criticism. Like I pointed out, if it bothers you so much, why didn’t you offer a rebuttal. Attacking me isn’t going to solve the problem of chi sao. So far your great kung-fu knowledge has been anything but enlightening. Why don’t you try something new, instead of crying, “you don’t know anything about kung-fu, so don’t talk to me about it.”

I thought your "Real History of the CMA's" thread was the best example of preaching about a subject you don't have a clue about until I saw this thread.

And I thought your generalizations about MMArtist was just as ignorant. But as you can see from my thread. I was looking for opinions and answers; whereas you’re clearly holding a grudge. Please go get some help for your own sake.

[TTEscrima]

You know very well what I meant. I was implying that the concepts within chi sao should be to be applied to live combat; just as combinations can be applied in boxing. Thus far, your attention to detail is incredible for a master of WC [sarcasm, again].

So, you're NOW claiming when you said no one used Chi Sau on you during sparring, you didn't mean that actual Chi sau was supposed to be used, just the concepts/attributes from within it eh? Well, it seems you don't even understand the concepts well enough to explain what you claim you meant.

So you sparred with a WC guy who didn't use any strikes, blocks, trapping or sensitivity?

If you ever touched each other (created a reference point) during the sparring session, then attributes from energy sensing (Chi Sau) came into play (assuming the other person actually knew WC), the fact you are unable to recognize this doesn't reflect on WC, it reflects on you.


Since its abundantly clear Pstevens has never actually seen Chi Sau (he already admitted he had never experienced it).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvnas8sC4Fw

[pstevens]

So, you're NOW claiming when you said no one used Chi Sau on you during sparring, you didn't mean that actual Chi sau was supposed to be used, just the concepts/attributes from within it eh? Well, it seems you don't even understand the concepts well enough to explain what you claim you meant.:

I was generalizing, but for someone as slow as yourself; perhaps I should make myself more clear. Listen carefully.

Someone asked about the usefulness of chi sao. My original statement was:

“In all honestly, chi sao is just an exercise. The range in which is performed is very hard to maintain in actual combat. There's something to be gained, but I wouldn't make it a focal point of combat training.”

My argument is that chi sao conditions one to remain within a mid-range for an unrealistic amount of time. I didn’t say it was completely useless in regards to combat; YOU DID! Your exact words were: “ITS NOT INTENDED FOR USE IN SPARRING OR COMBAT!!” Meaning it has no combat applications.

Either deal with it or don’t.

So you sparred with a WC guy who didn't use any strikes, blocks, trapping or sensitivity?

Exactly. I didn’t see any trapping, sensitivity to my attacks… As a matter of fact, I haven’t seen any of this stuff work outside of a WC gym. Please show or correct me if I’m wrong. I’d be willing retract my statement if you can show me a WC guy executing chi sau maneuvers/techniques/concepts while in-fighting against someone not WC.

[pstevens]

Here’s a video that was supposed to promote WC over karate (although it’s really TKD). As you can see, no “sticky” hands applications, trapping or and he has trouble staying in the mid-RANGE where chi sau concepts would apply.
YouTube - Wing Chun vs Karate

As opposed to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvnas8sC4Fw

[TTEscrima]

My argument is that chi sao conditions one to remain within a mid-range for an unrealistic amount of time. I didn’t say it was completely useless in regards to combat; YOU DID! Your exact words were: “ITS NOT INTENDED FOR USE IN SPARRING OR COMBAT!!” Meaning it has no combat applications.

Wrong again. As anyone with any actual training understands Forms, drills, exercises etc develop skill sets and attributes to be used in combat, but you NEVER use the actual drill, form or exercise itself in combat. Yet you declare Chi Sau wasn't used on you in sparring as some sort of black mark against WC, when in fact it just shows your ignorance of the subject.

Exactly. I didn’t see any trapping, sensitivity to my attacks… As a matter of fact, I haven’t seen any of this stuff work outside of a WC gym. Please show or correct me if I’m wrong. I’d be willing retract my statement if you can show me a WC guy executing chi sau maneuvers/techniques/concepts while in-fighting against someone not WC.

So now you're claiming your whole point was trapping doesn't work outside the WC school?

I believe even XF has commented on his own use of several WC trapping techniques in sparring.

[pstevens]

Wrong again. As anyone with any actual training understands Forms, drills, exercises etc develop skill sets and attributes to be used in combat, but you NEVER use the actual drill, form or exercise itself in combat. Yet you declare Chi Sau wasn't used on you in sparring as some sort of black mark against WC, when in fact it just shows your ignorance of the subject..

I made this point very clear! I said chi sau is an "exercise." However, it teaches an unrealistic approach to RANGE. Please prove otherwise.

So now you're claiming your whole point was trapping doesn't work outside the WC school?.

I never said otherwise. Please show where I stated that I wanted WC to work against WC... That would defeat the purpose wouldn't it? Please see my original argument and supply a rebuttal. Your lack of comprehension amazes me for someone who claims to be a kung-fu expert. Again, my problem is the amount of time spent in chi sau RANGE, not trapping, not striking, etc...

I believe even XF has commented on his own use of several WC trapping techniques in sparring.

Well, then you could have mentioned this in a constructive manner and I would either accepted it or inquired further. Yet, you resorted to personal attacks and taking my arguments out of context. Either way, suit yourself. I hope your kung-fu is better than your debate skills.

The model of this debate:

My argument: From what I've seen, Chi sau trains within a range that is compromising. However, it's useful to train in all ranges.

Your defense: You don't know chi sau; chi sau is just an exercise. you can't use it to fight. You don't know kung-fu; MMA people are ignorant regarding kung-fu, so please don't try to help us.

[TTEscrima]

I made this point very clear! I said chi sau is an "exercise." However, it teaches an unrealistic approach to RANGE. Please prove otherwise.

Let me see if I can explain this in a way you can comprehend, Chi Sau is trained at contact range because the exercise is intended to teach you to sense the opponents movements through contact with his limbs, you can't train it without contact so the drill has to be run at that range. Are there other ranges of combat? Sure but chi sau isn't applicable to them, chi Sau is about sensing and countering attacks at a specific range. The skill of skin listening is then applied during a fight to trap/deflect the opponents strike and opening the path for your strike, it's similar to how grapplers develop body feel that is then used to control position on the ground.

In BJJ both partners start out on the ground or on their knees where NO fights begin. I don't see you whining about that and declaring it doesn't work that way in sparring or fighting. Ever watched Royler butt scoot around on the mat instead of getting up to fight Sak? He butt scooted over 50% of the fight... guess he was practicing what he preached eh? Apparently his training emphasizing one range limited his ability to actually put an opponent on the ground and required him to lay there begging Sak to come down. SOME people are bright enough to grasp a tool has certain uses, some people are just tools.

[mellow]

The skill of skin listening is then applied during a fight

Can you elaborate on this a bit? I think this will throw alot of people off.