why I left kungfu

[csc]

= you are full of shit

It has been a long time since people call me "You are full of shit." I do love it very much. One thing for sure is this forum will make you feel young again and that's not a bad thing after all.

I like to exchange opinion among those who share "mutual respect" and not among those who love to argue for the sake of the argument. When it's fun, I'll play. When it's not, I won't.

kingoftheforest, I can feel your pain too.

[csc]

anti-MMA.

I may be the last person that have the anti-MMA attitude on this planet. csc stands for "Combat Shuai-Chiao" and that's the integration of kick, punch, lock, and throw, Combat SC = Sanshou or Sanda, a Chinese MMA without the ground game.

Here is our official website:

http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/main.html

[Tom Yum]

It has been a long time since people call me "You are full of shit." I do love it very much. One thing for sure is this forum will make you feel young again and that's not a bad thing after all.

I like to exchange opinion among those who share "mutual respect" and not among those who love to argue for the sake of the argument. When it's fun, I'll play. When it's not, I won't.

kingoftheforest, I can feel your pain too.

I've heard this does too...
YouTube - Iron Crotch truck pull


Oh I can feel the pain

[Ben Grimm]

I can't find words to discuss how much that would hurt.

[pstevens]

I've heard this does too...
YouTube - Iron Crotch truck pull


Oh I can feel the pain

Ouch... What a completely useless ability.

That's the problem with all this chi power, qi gong stuff... Most of it is completely useless in the context of martial arts and life. It's always stuff like a penis pull ability, lying on nails, walking on ashes, etc...

Reminds me of when Chinese fighters went to Thailand and demonstrated all sorts of chi demonstrations like breaking bricks; yet, not one could last one round of brutal MT beatdown.

It's like I always say: "the 10 years you spent developing chi to crush walnuts with your ass cheeks could have been used to become a competent fighter in a realistic discpline."

[TTEscrima]

Reminds me of when Chinese fighters went to Thailand and demonstrated all sorts of chi demonstrations like breaking bricks; yet, not one could last one round of brutal MT beatdown.

The Night Muay Thai lost its Supremacy

On the night of 23rd of September (last Sunday), at the foot of Bak Wan San (White Cloud Hill) where Master Wong Fei Hong was buried, wave upon wave of thunderous cheering had shaken the entire New Guangzhou Stadium in Canton. In a 7 match Sanda Vs Muaythai Pro Challenge there, the Chinese fighters have convincingly defeated the Thais with a glorious 5 : 2 victory. The action that have taken place on that fateful night way surpassed that of the previous Sep 8th Challenge. This time we saw the Muaythai champions using everything they could - punches, kicks, elbows (padded), knees & clinches, beating up many of the Chinese badly; yet in the end Sanda prevailed. Though there was bias & unfair judging from some of the Chinese judges, it could not take much away from the solid result that the Sanda fighters have achieved. If the victory of the previous challenge is shaky & not to be recognized by the world of MA, then the MA world will have no choice but to acknowledge this current victory after they see this hard fought battle. Muay Thai is no longer the ultimate ring sport.

The 1st bout is the 52kg category fight between Xu Ding & Rakseelah Chunpadoo, which started out badly for the Chinese. Xu could not get his throws which worked in previous fights to work against the Thai. In the 4th round Rakseelah landed a solid left knee kick in the right chest of Xu, completely knocking the spirit out of him. I think his ribs may have been fractured. The Chinese coach had to immediately throw in the towel, effecting an initial TKO for the Thai team.

The 2nd bout is the 56kg category fight between Zhao Bo & Sinlabathai Jorjeeying, by far the most unfair fight of the evening. Although the Thai could not knock down Zhao, he was obviously the superior fighter, sucessfully landed 2 elbow strikes on his opponent. By the end of the 5 rounds Sinlabathai had whacked Zhao so hard that his skin was splitted above the left eye-lid.. leaving him dazed & hardly able to stand properly. While Zhao did land many side kicks on his opponent they did not hurt the Thai at all. Yet some of those unethical Chinese judges still gave this match to Zhao, drawing fire from the Thai judges & officials later.

The 3rd bout is the 60kg category fight between Liu Zedong & Songkong Jeenukoon, who were quite equally matched. All it took for the Chinese to win was a few ineffective side kicks & throws. In a 50-50 fight like this it is inevitable the visitor will surely lose by points to the host. Nothing short of a knock down will suffice for a Thai win. At this point, some of the Thai spectators walked out of the stadium, feeling disgusted no doubt.

The 4th bout is another 60kg category female fight between Wang Zanli & Yorying Seewoopeun. Wang is a head taller than Yorying.. I wonder how they could be of equal weight. As expected the Thai lass is knocked & thrown about by Wang throughout the fight, letting her winning decisively for the Chinese team.

The 5th bout is the 65kg category fight between Yu Dawei & Tiapalee Pathawachai, a seasoned champion with a record of 80 wins out of 88 fights. Yu could not throw the Thai at all - he came well prepared. On the other hand he was hit so many times by Tiaplee's firece elbow/knee combos that the Chinese coach, fearing for Yu's safety, had to throw in the towel in the 4th round. Another TKO for the Thais, bring the result to 3 : 2.

The 6th bout is the 70kg category fight between Hu Tao & Chavalit Jorjeeying, perhaps the toughest fight that evening. In the first 4 rounds both fighters had won 2 each. Hu has strong techniques but he could not gain any upper hand from the Thai. It is until the final round that he went totally defensive, countering Chavalit's attacks with side kicks whenever he could. Of course, they could not hurt the Thai, but Hu had already gained a marginal win by points through his tactic. The Thai judges were also caught being bias in this bout, for they had given ridiculously high points to Chavalit when he was obviously on the defensive during 2 of the 5 rounds. So in the end this 50-50 fight had to be forfeited to the host, which sealed the visiting team's fate.

The 7th & final bout is the 75kg category fight between Liu Hailong, last year's King of Sanda & Lukpoei Grabangkoei, which was the climax of the whole Challenge. Indeed Liu showed mastery worthy of a King. Right in the beginning of the 1st round he landed a high round kick in Lukpoei's head, & without stopping he grabbed his 75kg opponent, lifted him high up & thrown him out of the ring into the concrete! Screams of pure exhilaration rang through the entire stadium. Following that, Liu landed another solid punch right in his opponent's face after feigning with a low kick, sending Lukpoei reeling. By the end of the 2nd round he was already bleeding all over his face. Yet the Thai insisted on continuing the fight. Muaythai's fighting spirit was truly admirable, & the spectators could not help but respect this fighter. Silence filled the stadium as everyone watched this engrossing battle of skill vs toughness. Liu agained lifted & threw the Thai out of the ring with a back body drop. That's not all; he later splitted open his face with a spining backfist. It is all the Thai can do to prevent himself from being knocked out. At the end of the bout an ambulance had to send Lukpoei immediately to the hospital to treat his incessant bleeding, a result of several solid blows to his face. When Liu made his hero's exit, the Chinese spectators, no longer able to control their jubilation, surrounded & lifted him high above their heads, roaring,"China Team, Victory!!" The Thai spectators (including a former Thai Premier who is there to support), however, are visibly shocked & left speechless in the aftermath of this great battle. The Thai coach was glum & refused to answer any questions when approached by eager reporters on his way back to the locker rooms. Several Bangkok TV stations also broadcasted this Challenge live in Thailand. I cannot begin to imagine the effect of this defeat on the millions of Muaythai fans back home.. afterall, everyone believed Muaythai to be invincible in the ring - until tonight

index6n

[jubaji]

More copyandpaste-fu

[Tom Yum]

tom yum - i think you make some good points, but is it really even possible to ever train for those destruction techniques. I mean you can never really gouge someone in the eye full force at training and it requires your partner to be fairly compliant and still so there are no accidents so are you really learning anything at all so far a motor memory goes?

Nerve-strikes/structural attacks/destructions definitely have a place in martial arts training.

Ali used to get his thumb caught in the eyes of his opponents and it would wreak havoc on their strategy - this was pro-boxing, a sport where guys are used to taking heavy punishment on the upperbody.

I was reading BB mag today - TKD Master Cho mentions a fighter in the UFC whom got gouged pretty badly and lost the fight because of it.

Same thing in MMA - Matt Hughes got accidentally eye gouged by BJ Penn in one of their matchups and Hughes needed a minute or two to regroup.

In my own personal experiences, getting gouged by accident or others (say throwing a punch while sparring and their own thumb gouges their eye trying to block) it definitely distracts/debilitates.

Now, if you're trying to gouge against a trained boxer/muaythai fighter going toe to toe and your own stand-up game is lacking (bad timing, poor defense, telegraphing, no confidence etc.) - chances are you're going to eat some punches in bunches and with the muaythai fighter, you'll get everything but the kitchen sink thrown back at you...

Same goes for groin strikes and strikes to other structurally weak areas.

Destructions?

Just like their SE Asian counterparts, the gong-fu fighters use elbows, knees, kicks and strikes as destructions. Elbows against fists, knuckle strikes to the inner/outter portions of the arm, elbows against shins, foot strikes to the front/rear of the knee etc.

[Tom Yum]

More copyandpaste-fu

As long as 5 years ago, the best of san shou against mediocre pro-Thais would've ended by Thai victory (KO or TKO).

Sanshou fighters are gaining more wins against muaythai fighters of equivalent levels nowadays, since they are able to train with more formidable muaythai sparring partners - they are probably hiring guys whom are harder hitting, smarter pros to help them acclimate.

Add to it, that the style focuses more on takedowns - rather than clinch - making it difficult for the Thais to defend against, since they are not heavily cross trained in wrestling or judo.

[jubaji]

True enough

[pstevens]

The Night Muay Thai lost its Supremacy

On the night of 23rd of September (last Sunday), at the foot of Bak Wan San (White Cloud Hill) where Master Wong Fei Hong was buried, wave upon wave of thunderous cheering had shaken the entire New Guangzhou Stadium in Canton. In a 7 match Sanda Vs Muaythai Pro Challenge there, the Chinese fighters have convincingly defeated the Thais with a glorious 5 : 2 victory. The action that have taken place on that fateful night way surpassed that of the previous Sep 8th Challenge. This time we saw the Muaythai champions using everything they could - punches, kicks, elbows (padded), knees & clinches, beating up many of the Chinese badly; yet in the end Sanda prevailed. Though there was bias & unfair judging from some of the Chinese judges, it could not take much away from the solid result that the Sanda fighters have achieved. If the victory of the previous challenge is shaky & not to be recognized by the world of MA, then the MA world will have no choice but to acknowledge this current victory after they see this hard fought battle. Muay Thai is no longer the ultimate ring sport.

yada, yada, yada...

index6n

The sanshou used in the ring today is more of a modern conception, even though the Chinese government and kung-fu enthusiasts refuse to believe so, that little resembles traditional kung-fu.

That sanshou has defeated MT is of little consequence, since sanshou is derived from MT and many Thai instructors were brought into China for this reason.. Sanshou is not representative of traditional kung-fu and the success of sanshou in kickboxing can't be attributed to traditional kung-fu.

This is evident in the fact that sanshou (the ring sport) looks just like kickboxing and uses all the tools of kickboxing, muay thai, etc... and NONE of the traditional kung-fu stances, strikes or flowerly movements.

But the point here again is a return to reality and a MOVE AWAY FROM mystical chi crap.

[rhee]

You right kung fu suck, i only like Sanda as fighting. But i like to practice with sword.

[fire cobra]

Sanshao has Muay Thai techniques in it doesnt it?,the Chinese have learnt from the Thais.

[Tom Yum]

Sanshao has Muay Thai techniques in it doesnt it?,the Chinese have learnt from the Thais.

True.

Its hard to compete against western boxing and muaythai in the ring, because boxers and muaythai fighters spend all their time prepairing for fights and winning by KO - it makes for a quick and hard fighting regiment.

Boxers and muaythai fighters are doing what karate, tkd, gong-fu fighters used to do before the invention of safety-hazards and law suits lol

Gong-fu fighters aren't ring fighters. they've adapted from the Thais and made it their own.

The only differences are the use of the side kick and spin kicks and the use of shuaijiao (kind of like a mix of free-style wrestling/judo).

As an observer of the Chinese arts, there seems to be alot more than just ring fighting.

There's alot of good empty-handed strikes, sweeps and infighting that you just don't see - and the closest thing you can get to it are from arts that are influenced by Chinese systems - like many Korean systems, kenpo, kuntao and pukulan. They're picky about teaching and releasing their material.

On top of that, Chinese medicine, as mystical and strange as it seems, is actually becoming better explained by scientific methods - which explains why funding for it has been significant here in the states and why accupuncture/pressure are becoming as common as....sushi lol.

Gong-fu seems more like an art or way of life than just a fighting art?

The overly commercial schools do try to be too many things and some are just in it for business or for passing on a tradition - but as I've said before, there are schools/instructors who are good at teaching gong-fu, esp. for fighting.

Some of the techniques are too deadly for the ring but its not mysitcal BS - its because you're striking a structurally weak/or bundle of nerves with a hard weapon.

Its the same concept as traditional Japanese ju-jitsu. Lots of destructions, hard throws, "dirty" techniques.The Chinese arts are changing.

More ring-hardened fighters, who have the same toughness/confidence to use techniques that aren't ring friendly.

Doesn't have to be TCMA per se, it could be muaythai/silat or boxing/kali/escrima etc.

[csc]

The sanshou used in the ring today is more of a modern conception, even though the Chinese government and kung-fu enthusiasts refuse to believe so, that little resembles traditional kung-fu.

The shanshou uses:

- kick to move in (close distance),
- punch to build bridge (arms contact),
- bridge to create arm wrapping (leading arm control), and
- arm wrapping to execute the throw.

It's pure CMA approach and no modern concept in that. The integraion of kick, punch, lock, and throw (except the ground fight) was always treated as the ultimate goal of all CMA practioners.