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  • martial ARTIST vs MARTIAL artist

    Do we as martial artists focus to much on the "martial" side of the coin and not the "artist" side?

    i mean, think about it, we all train very hard and put in alot of effort, time and money for years to improve our fighting skills. but out of the millions of martial artists how many actually have to use it to defend their lives in the street or the life of someone else? i'm not talking about "defending your ego" fights over spilled beer. i'm talking about someone ready to kill you, literally. maybe less than 1% of all martial artists in the world will ever have to face that situation.

    so why do we train so hard and spend so much money for? this is a question i keep asking myself. and i think it's an important one.

    so many people think that if you compete in the ring and do tons of sparring, you are "tough". but you wanna know who IMO are tougher? the father trying to raise a good family in a tough economy, or the single mother that has to work three jobs to support her children. now these guys are tough! why do i say this? because ultimately, it's "life" that will be our ultimate arena, it's "ourselves" that will be our greatest opponent.

    and that's why i personally train so hard and spend lots of money on instruction and have been doing it for so long. to learn "how" to get through life without meeting force with force. so that when life comes at you hard, you have the training to get through it and continue on the journey.

    this leads me to another question, why is it that every martial arts school has a "written" guide to the "martial" side of progressing from basic to high level or white belt to black belt as an example, but nobody has a "written" guide for the "artist" side? IMO this has to do with focusing too much on "technique" and the "if you do this, then i do that" mentality, which IMO is detrimental to a martial artist. but if you focus on the "concepts" and the "why" each and every movement works, then you are teaching yourself the "guide" to getting through life, such as "go straight", if you meet an obstacle don't meet it with force, go around it but always go straight, stay flexible but always go straight, this leads to traveling far on your journey.

    i strive every day to be a "martial ARTIST" and not a "MARTIAL artist", because eventually when all of us get to the "top of the mountain", the view is the same for everyone.

    take care and peace!

    Jin

  • #2
    Originally posted by ChinaBoxer View Post
    Do we as martial artists focus to much on the "martial" side of the coin and not the "artist" side?

    i mean, think about it, we all train very hard and put in alot of effort, time and money for years to improve our fighting skills. but out of the millions of martial artists how many actually have to use it to defend their lives in the street or the life of someone else? i'm not talking about "defending your ego" fights over spilled beer. i'm talking about someone ready to kill you, literally. maybe less than 1% of all martial artists in the world will ever have to face that situation.

    so why do we train so hard and spend so much money for? this is a question i keep asking myself. and i think it's an important one.
    Myself, I train for excercise. If it's not fun for me, chances are I won't do it. The fact that I learn how to fight better is an added bonus I don't often think about.
    so many people think that if you compete in the ring and do tons of sparring, you are "tough". but you wanna know who IMO are tougher? the father trying to raise a good family in a tough economy, or the single mother that has to work three jobs to support her children. now these guys are tough! why do i say this? because ultimately, it's "life" that will be our ultimate arena, it's "ourselves" that will be our greatest opponent.
    apples and oranges. meaning, martial arts training has nada to do with raising kids.

    and that's why i personally train so hard and spend lots of money on instruction and have been doing it for so long. to learn "how" to get through life without meeting force with force. so that when life comes at you hard, you have the training to get through it and continue on the journey.

    this leads me to another question, why is it that every martial arts school has a "written" guide to the "martial" side of progressing from basic to high level or white belt to black belt as an example, but nobody has a "written" guide for the "artist" side? IMO this has to do with focusing too much on "technique" and the "if you do this, then i do that" mentality, which IMO is detrimental to a martial artist. but if you focus on the "concepts" and the "why" each and every movement works, then you are teaching yourself the "guide" to getting through life, such as "go straight", if you meet an obstacle don't meet it with force, go around it but always go straight, stay flexible but always go straight, this leads to traveling far on your journey.

    i strive every day to be a "martial ARTIST" and not a "MARTIAL artist", because eventually when all of us get to the "top of the mountain", the view is the same for everyone.

    take care and peace!

    Jin
    Okay, so what do you mean by "artist"?

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    • #3
      IMO, martial is the basis, and art is in senior level.
      if you don't know how to kick, how to punch, how can you fight?
      if you don't know how to fight, how can you know what's martial?
      if you don't know what's martial, how can you know what's martial art?
      it's step by step.
      as my master said, when you are no in the level, never think the level's thing.

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      • #4
        The term martial art means the skills needed for war.

        Art in this sense is not the same as Art in the Picasso sense of the word, rather a skill that can be learnt by study. The word martial derives from the Roman God of war Mars hence the term martial arts refers to skills learnt for war.

        Not saying your wrong to better yourself by training martial arts, just that the original meaning does not imply that you are going to become a better person.

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        • #5
          I would think that in the U.S., the martial gets overlooked in favor of the "art" element. (As evidenced by belt mills and abundant TKD schools/Dojos who promote kata/poomise/technique memorization without pressure testing them in realistic sparring, often times resulting in empty hand waving.)

          I could be wrong, but the "art" element got tacked on during it's transition to the West, to market it better. In their countries of origin (with the exeption of Western MA,) to the best of my recollection all these arts have a prefix of "fist, way, method," rather than art.

          And sure it's tough being a parent, but that's the challenge of being a parent. If you want to be a martial parent, that's still different from being a martial artist. Just my opinion, for whatever it's worth.

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          • #6
            what he said^^^

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            • #7
              Phil Elmore is a "martialist." Who's right?

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              • #8
                Hi There!
                This is Elizabeth!
                Im new in this site!
                The term martial art means the skills needed for war.
                Art in this sense is not the same as Art in the Picasso sense of the word, rather a skill that can be learnt by study. The word martial derives from the Roman God of war Mars hence the term martial arts refers to skills learnt for war.
                I hope I can have some friends here!

                Thanks!...
                Good Luck!...
                Last edited by Tant01; 07-17-2010, 09:34 PM. Reason: URL Deleted by moderator

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                • #9
                  Hi liz I love you x

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                  • #10
                    Well, I love both of you, but that kind of thing is only legal in Holland.

                    I also think that the words "art" and "artist" have been flaunted around to describe all sorts of crap.

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                    • #11
                      I think an Artist is someone who is creative,industrious and aware. If you are a MARTIAL artist, you can fight, but you are also aware and conscious of yourself and your behavior, and you are able to be creative in different situations. If you are just a fighter you are just an ape or a robot. If you are true MARTIAL ARTIST you have compassion and understanding as well as restraint and nobility. Its a world of difference between a fighter and a martial artist I believe. Its a great and important topic that I'm glad to see people are exploring. Be the change you want to see in the world. If our governments become filled with true martial artists, we will find peace as a planet. It is this lack of true martial artists in the world that is causing so much senseless violence world wide. A true martial artist seeks an alternative to violence with the creative inspiration that only an ARTIST can experience and put into action. Zatoichi is the classic and one of the best examples in my view. A true artist demonstrates wisdom as well as skill.

                      It is possible that Kung Fu the series actually PREVENTED many fights, while many action films today probably cause fights.
                      Its a shame that there have not been more characters in the media like David Carradine, I admire him for spreading awareness, that was his main role and contribution as he portrayed a true martial artist on television in the early 70's. Very sadly, we have not really had any peaceloving, soft spoken, wise action heros since that show.


                      Kung Fu School

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                      • #12
                        hello all. The whole thing is a bit convoluted. Some people try to put science in instead of art as if it differentiates one from another. thats Bogus. IMO, the word art refers to an abstract body skill one is trying to acquire. No matter how much regimentation one does and no matter how much "science" IE formula, "if this. then that." one entertains, the truth is that conflict is abstract. You don't know whats coming. All the formative things one does is but preparation for this. Not saying you don't need it. That would be a grave mistake too. But some people get too caught up in some triviality or minutia and neglect the obvious, kung fu is fighting.

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                        • #13
                          Hey sifuabel! you dont know me but I am a fellow ex-bullshidoka. pleasant here isnt it?

                          That said, Jin, I think that most people are involved in the art side of things, even those who are more concerned with the martial side. For example, I want to straight blast as well as possible, so that I can get into a thai clinch and HKE. So I practice straight blasting as many times until I get the technique down, and spend time studying my own body movements, and correct them and move on. This is the artistic side, the side that those who study MA probably spend most of their time ie cultivation. Much in the same way a musician practices over and over but may not play a gig so often ( or compared to his time practicing- which is cultivation of the art) a martial artist should spend hours perfecting technique and developing the art, and only display their art when it is needed. So I guess both

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by sifuabel View Post
                            kung fu is fighting.

                            Even if you're not very good at it, eh master earpull?

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