Chinese Boxing defeats Muay Thai!

[TracyKarate]

I don't know what a "troller" is, but I am willing to admit that. So Jared, I am assuming you think of three years as being a long time. There is a wise saying that goes along the lines of "The wisest man is he who admits he knows nothing". By simply stating an opinoin that is not in the "mainstream", I frequently come across the opposite of that saying on this board.
The " if I don't know it, it's no good" attitude is only detrimental to a martial artist's growth.

[Scott Harper]

Street attackers will use kicks in attacks, especially as more movies and other areas of entertainment use them. Watch a few of the episodes on Fox about "dangerous attacks" (or something along that line) and you can see some kicking going on.

Hard to train for a person throwing a brick at you unless you want to simulate brick throws.

Kata and competition should have a balanced approach, I believe. Such as in judo.

As the Chinese learn more muay thai, they may be able to overcome it, but they haven't proven yet in many challenge matches except for the on mentioned in this topic. Check out this website on the history of kung fu vs. muay thai: http://members.tripod.com/~crane69/index6d.htm then http://members.aol.com/Thaiboxing2000/

As for the video of the bjj guy breaking the guy's arm, I didn't see it. I didn't care too. I will wait for the Gracie In Action 3 tape that may have it along with Gracie students attcking gay men.

[Scott Harper]

This may have been the match that was originally discussed: http://members.tripod.com/~crane69/index6m.htm

Here's the whole story.

[Szczepankiewicz]

TraceyKarate

I asked you some simple straightforward questions which you chose not to answer. Please respond as I am interested in what you have to say.

Thanks,

SZ

[flyinclockchoke]

chinese boxing my ass...

that's right! read it and weep boys...

[Mako]

Hmmm, let me get this straight. It's too difficult for the "average" recreational type student to learn to effectively kick a leg (seemingly a nice, big target) and yet the same student is going to be able to hit a moving target the size of a quarter? (the eye).

I used to buy off on the eye gouge too, until i put on goggles and actually tried it in a "live" setting. It's nearly impossible to hit a moving target the size of a quarter. Think about it.

If you are close enough to eye gouge (and standing still), a good MT clinch may end you. If you are on the ground and try to eye gouge.. well, let's just hope you are allowed to tap.

[Goddess]

Question...

It may have already been addressed (I didn't read all the reply's to this post), but I would like to know which boxers were defeated?

Ranked boxers, or journeymen?

Thanx,

[festiva]

great

always should we be looking at improvements good for the sanda fighters if they dominated for every style theres an equally good counter style it keeps things from getting stale.. but you cant say well that was classical kung fu or chinese boxing. now lets see these fighters against decent boxers ...let me know how it goes..whithout prejudice ....festiva..

[sidder]

Well, things have strayed a bit off topic with the banter. But I must say that one thing that I don't like about sanshou is that it's not very standardized. I've trained in kickboxing and kyokushin under one teacher who, with no experience in sanshou, entered the Canadian sanshou championship and cleaned up in not only his weight class, but also the next one up. He said that some of his opponents (the ones who trained in what was in effect muay thai) were tough, but alot of them had some pretty sloppy striking skills and just couldn't handle his kicks. I've been to a few sanshou schools and some of the higher ranked guys I saw weren't much tougher than glorified tkd guys. On the other hand, that Cung Lee guy who was in the K-1 USA was pretty badass.

[flyinclockchoke]

San shou is weak...

sorry guys, there's a saying that they have in China... San Shou is for wrestlers who can't wrestle and boxers who can't box...

that's why they get into San Shou...

[konghan]

The results are in. Chinese Sanda fighters have defeated muay thai in the Sanda vs muay thai challenge that happened yesterday. Although the 4-3 score is not nearly as one sided as the Chinese fighters' usual victories (which are usually in the area of 4-0, 3-1, etc), it is victory nonetheless. Various Sanda champions faced off with some legit muay thai champions from around the world. The muay thai side i think was overconfident and foolish and probably didn't prepare enough to face off with this style of fighting. The Chinese on the other hand were very smart and have been dissecting muay thai and how to counter it for awhile now. The thai side was even dumb enough to let the Chinese impose a rule of no elbow strikes and no knees to the head! The Chinese also limited themselves by using a rule of no offensive throws, only defensive throws (which doesn't make too much of a huge difference since san shou type throwing is usually most effective when used as a defense/counter to an overzealous attacker rushing in with strikes). Still, by all accounts it was a very interesting event and even with the rules imposed on them and their lack of experience fighting san shou, the muay thai fighters still put up a great fight and showed the Chinese that beating muay thai would not be the cakewalk that beating karate, kickboxing and TKD was.

It is worth noting that this event was actually a prelude to the main sanda/muay thai challenge which is slated to happen later this month. This next time, the thais will have no rules restricting their weapons. Hopefully they will be smart enough to learn from this first defeat and go in more prepared this time around. Much props to the Chinese. They've been working hard and taking it to everyone and have proved themselves formidable athletes. The Sanda guys have done what the classical kung fu guys have not been able to do for decades: bring victory and honor back to the chinese martial tradition. I think it is very likely that we'll see a much better fight from the thais next time, but until that day comes, it is a dark day for muay thai. This is one of the only and one of the biggest publicized defeats of muay thai to another Asian ring fighting sport in history. The Thai people take such great pride in their art (which is why it is their national sport) and I have a feeling that this bitter defeat will send shockwaves through Thailand.

For those of you who don't know, Sanda/San Shou is a new wave Chinese MA/fighting sport. It's also known as Chinese kickboxing. Basically its kickboxing with throws (similar to Draka or Shootboxing). The art itself combines techniques from kung fu, kickboxing and Chinese and freestyle wrestling. It was initally largely based on the kung fu system taught to the Chinese military and police. In their efforts to further promote the sport, the Chinese have done various challenge matches against teams from other fighting sports. They have decimated American kickboxing 4 times in a row (it has been an annual challenge since 1997 or 98), they have beaten a team of American boxers, and they've also mopped up the floor with Japanese full contact karate and Korean TKD teams. They have now just barely pulled victory against muay thai, and there will be yet another muay thai challenge late this month. This time, there will be no rules restricting muay thai technique. In any case, the Chinese fighters have been proving their ability time and time again. This sport may in the future find a link to MMA.

San Shou or the sanda chinese fighters are just a new term use by modern China to officially established a national uniform contact sport. Just like Wu Shu which is now the official national kung fu in term of international standard established by the Chinese goverment.

San Shou fighting has always been part of kung fu it was just never publicly sold to the world. In fact Bruce Lee discover this when he was in HongKong & Guandong province during the 60`s & incorporated the techniques into his jeet kun do.

Ngo Cho Kun tournament rules are identical to the sanshou, the only difference is that majority of the sanshou particpants under go semi or professional training that make them so good & they use a lot of high kicks compare to ngo cho kun where majority of participants are non-pro fighters who are students, businesssman, doctors, engineers & etc.

Kung fu has always been a powerful martial art that is more powerful then what the military has. That is why in ancient China the manchu`s gathered a large army to destroy the shoalin temple. Not only that, the power of many good martial fighters help China to expand its empire throughout Asia & eventually encompassing the entire old USSR, the baltic & part of estern Europe.

Martial art in general is becoming a bit irrelevant in modern warfare where war can now be fought with weapons of mass & massive destruction, long range missiles, satellite-laser guided missiles & other form of weaponry that doesnot required any martial art skill, that is why kung fu is now slowly being regulated into a sport thing without fear of exposing the secrets of different styles.

We should understand that the old China is unlike Japan, Korea or Thailand China at that time don`t publicly brag, or commercialised kung fu. what the world know about kung fu at that time was very limited only to what they see in their local chinatown area.

But now that China is starting to adopt modernization & openly selling their kung fu secrets the world is now seeing the complication, the power, the stylist, & the mysticism of kung fu.

[SLK.fidget]

konghan say many great things, and uh sry if this was already brought up, but where can i find videos or highlights of the san shou vs muay thai fights that were originally to topic of this post.

[Rudolphuss]

Michele 'SuperMike' Verginelli

http://sfuk.tripod.com/interviews_01/verginelli.html

Claudio :First of all, congratulations Michele for your victory, tell me something about your match with Miranda ?

Michele Verginelli: Thank you,, well this is the second time i fought Carmine Miranda (last november Mike beats Miranda by ko in the 4 round), the first time it was harder, i’ve trained only in boxing for 7 months (Mike is also a boxer), and i didn’t feel so confident with the ground work, this time i’ve trained a lot in boxing, kickboxing, grappling and conditioning and it was easier.

Claudio : Could you tell us about your background and how long have you been involved in MMA ?

Verginelli: well i’ ve started training in 1992 in full contact karate (american kickboxing), but after few months i discovered Sanda (chinese combat system, a kind of Muay thai with throws and submissions), after a slow start as a fighter, i’ve been 6 times Sanda italian champion, and two times sanda world champion, with over 70 bouts.

Claudio: when did you start fighting MMA?

Michele Verginelli: At a point in 1998 they ask me to not compete anymore in Sanda (laughs), they were tired of me winning every time and no one wanted to fight me (laughs), then a promoter asked me to fight in the first (and only) Cage fight in Italia.

[MuayThaiFighter]

Tracykarate,

Stop fooling yourself. If you had two similar people, one practicing karate three times a week for a couple hours each time and another spending the same time doing muay thai, the guy doing muay thai is going to decimate the karate guy 9 times out of 10. Now be a good girl and go practice your katas.

I agree.She's living in a dream world if she thinks karate can dominate Muay Thai,like you said 9 out of 10 x we will win.

[MuayThaiFighter]

The results are in. Chinese Sanda fighters have defeated muay thai in the Sanda vs muay thai challenge that happened yesterday. Although the 4-3 score is not nearly as one sided as the Chinese fighters' usual victories (which are usually in the area of 4-0, 3-1, etc), it is victory nonetheless. Various Sanda champions faced off with some legit muay thai champions from around the world. The muay thai side i think was overconfident and foolish and probably didn't prepare enough to face off with this style of fighting. The Chinese on the other hand were very smart and have been dissecting muay thai and how to counter it for awhile now. The thai side was even dumb enough to let the Chinese impose a rule of no elbow strikes and no knees to the head! The Chinese also limited themselves by using a rule of no offensive throws, only defensive throws (which doesn't make too much of a huge difference since san shou type throwing is usually most effective when used as a defense/counter to an overzealous attacker rushing in with strikes). Still, by all accounts it was a very interesting event and even with the rules imposed on them and their lack of experience fighting san shou, the muay thai fighters still put up a great fight and showed the Chinese that beating muay thai would not be the cakewalk that beating karate, kickboxing and TKD was.

It is worth noting that this event was actually a prelude to the main sanda/muay thai challenge which is slated to happen later this month. This next time, the thais will have no rules restricting their weapons. Hopefully they will be smart enough to learn from this first defeat and go in more prepared this time around. Much props to the Chinese. They've been working hard and taking it to everyone and have proved themselves formidable athletes. The Sanda guys have done what the classical kung fu guys have not been able to do for decades: bring victory and honor back to the chinese martial tradition. I think it is very likely that we'll see a much better fight from the thais next time, but until that day comes, it is a dark day for muay thai. This is one of the only and one of the biggest publicized defeats of muay thai to another Asian ring fighting sport in history. The Thai people take such great pride in their art (which is why it is their national sport) and I have a feeling that this bitter defeat will send shockwaves through Thailand.

For those of you who don't know, Sanda/San Shou is a new wave Chinese MA/fighting sport. It's also known as Chinese kickboxing. Basically its kickboxing with throws (similar to Draka or Shootboxing). The art itself combines techniques from kung fu, kickboxing and Chinese and freestyle wrestling. It was initally largely based on the kung fu system taught to the Chinese military and police. In their efforts to further promote the sport, the Chinese have done various challenge matches against teams from other fighting sports. They have decimated American kickboxing 4 times in a row (it has been an annual challenge since 1997 or 98), they have beaten a team of American boxers, and they've also mopped up the floor with Japanese full contact karate and Korean TKD teams. They have now just barely pulled victory against muay thai, and there will be yet another muay thai challenge late this month. This time, there will be no rules restricting muay thai technique. In any case, the Chinese fighters have been proving their ability time and time again. This sport may in the future find a link to MMA.

If you are saying that Muay Thai is no longer one of the best and that the chinese boxers have finally beat us,it makes no sense.If you take our main weapons away from us obviously we're not going to do that great.The whole reason why we dominate over other stand up arts is because of our main weapons such as shin,knees and elbows.So winning by taking all this away from us doesn't really prove anything so it's not something to be proud of.

If we took your guys weapons you'd lose against any style too. Fight us fairly using what you've trained in and we use what we've trained in and we would have come out the winners.Making so many rules just so you can win against another style makes no sense so all I can say is those fights prove shit.

Well if the next fight has no rules restricting Muay Thai techniques, I am willing to bet the Chinese Boxers will lose this time proving that Muay Thai is still the best stand up art in the world and always will be.

When is the next fight on tv ?