Wing Chun?

[ryta1203]

Ok, I am new to this entire site and if there is another post asking the same question then I haven't seen it.

Ok, again, I am very interested in everyone's opinion on Wing Chun Kung Fu? And yes I know the other spellings so don't bother with all that?

[darrianation]

Maybe I shouldn't chime in because I don't really know it well, but I will anyway. Sorry. My only experience with it is when I was young my Karate school went to a Wing Chung school and sparred them.

They had gorgeous kata and cool weapons demonstrations and sel-defense demonstrations much better than ours. However when it came sparring time we won every single match. They didn’t win a single one. From white belts to black.

That doesn’t mean that all wing chung stylists can’t fight but these guys sure couldn’t. I think they spent all their time on those fancy katas and not much else.

My school was a Wado school in case you were wondering.

[Great Sage]

I learned some Wing Tsun from a guy that I sparred... A few Chi Sao and trapping techniques, I have added to my repetoire. I also like some of their defensive schemes.

The ultimate aim of Wing Tsun is to stay within striking range, trap and immobilize, then attack the centerline — at least that's what I was told. This is fine and dandy if you can get inside and trade multiple blows, but real in-fighting is not so elaborate.

The main flaw with Wing Tsun and many traditional styles is the assumption that people will be throwing static punches, or straight attacks... These styles are very susceptible to feints, jab hooks and unorthodox techniques. For that reason, I think boxing is such a great science. Boxing techniques can compensate for nearly any angle attack.

However, don’t let my assessment of Wing Tsun dissuade you from pursuing it. Wing Tsun does have some good features. You learn to develop hand speed and trapping. Basically, you should give it a try and find out if it’s what you like. Otherwise, take it and make the most out of the techniques that work for you.

[JIMI]

As far as i am concerned, its all good. Absorb what is useful and leave the rest.

[Thai Bri]

Apparently there are good clubs where they teach it in an effective way. But the club I went to was a bit of a nonsense. It was like playing patter-cake.

People pratled on about it being "structurally fast", meaning that the simultaneous block/attack type moves were quicker than block THEN strike.

True, but it is also structurally weak, as the Wing Chun punches are nothing like as powerful as a right cross/left hook etc.

I've always liked the idea of the chi sao, but reckon they still need to put mpre hip and shoulder acton into the strikes.

[Lizard]

What is the Chi sao?

[krys]

True, but it is also structurally weak, as the Wing Chun punches are nothing like as powerful as a right cross/left hook etc.

Hello there, my primary arts are fmas but i went also into WC for one year now and I enjoy it.

I am not so sure that the WC punches are so weak, usually their speed is greater than western boxing punches....
Besides believe me, a good finger jab to the eye or throat does not really need to be powerfull in order to shut down your opponent .....

The idea that WC is only short range is not true, in a good gym they will teach you to throw punches at all ranges in order to get your opponent, part of the training should also be on developping powerfull strikes....

Thanks,
Christian.

[Thai Bri]

Originally posted by Lizard
What is the Chi sao?

Chi Sao is also known as sticky hands. Basically your forearms are in contact with your opponents, and you learn to react to what you feel him doing, rather than what you see.

[Lizard]

How would an untrained person react to Chi Sao?

[krys]

QUOTE]How would an untrained person react to Chi Sao?[/QUOTE]


It is so not easy to learn at the beginning because you need to be relaxed while keeping a good structure. The shoulders should not be tense so that you can react to your opponents moves and strike quickly when you feel an opening.
After a while it becomes like a game where you mutually try to feel the intentions of your partner just by hand contact.....

Thanks,
Christian.

[Lizard]

Good advice but what I meant was: How would someone react if you used Chi Sao on them in a fight? It's a nice idea but does it work if your opponent tries to grapple?

[ryanhall]

Uhhh, why would you ever try to use a Wing Chun DRILL on someone in a fight?

How would someone react to the use of Chi Sau? Probably by pistioning your face with their fist. That is my honest answer.

Before anyone asks about trapping: Traditional Wing Chun trapping is cool, but it is next to impossible to apply it in a fight.

[krys]

Chi Sao is a just a (very good) training tool.
In a fight you are not trying to go into Chi Sao but to hit your opponent....
If you see a gap, strike over and over until he is down, you don't move into sticky hands....

The sensitivity acquired with the Chi Sao exercise will allow you to react quickly once you made contact, to capture his hands, to destabilize him; also to strike from different angles once you feel the opening.... most important to be relaxed and to defend under pressure when your enemy sends a rain of blows to you....

" It's a nice idea but does it work if your opponent tries to grapple?"

As in any good martial arts there are techniques against graplers in W.C. ....

"Before anyone asks about trapping: Traditional Wing Chun trapping is cool, but it is next to impossible to apply it in a fight."

Depends on your level of training, in a fight you are not looking to trap your opponent but to hit him or take him down, it is a question of opportunity.....


Thanks,
Christian.

[ryanhall]

Christian,

As in any good martial arts there are techniques against graplers in W.C. ....

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense and completely incorrect. I didn't think that anyone still believed in "anti-grappling."

Depends on your level of training, in a fight you are not looking to trap your opponent but to hit him or take him down, it is a question of opportunity.....

Level of training? It's just unworkable period. Most people's hands are nowhere near as fast as mine, and I can't do it. I won't ever have hands as fast as a top lightweight boxer, and I don't believe that they would ever be able to trap the way WC players try to do (if they invested the time to learn how). I think that trapping can be OK as a training tool, but it is unrealistic to expect to be able to do it in a real fight, much less a self-defense situation (not the same thing). I'm tired of repeating myself on this one, but it almost certainly won't work for the following reasons:

1) You probably aren't fast enough.
2) Your opponent breaks the structure by not accepting the feed properly.
3) Your opponent disengages range.
4) It is a very fine motor skill.
5) There's no point in doing it, as almost nobody bothers occupying the centerline properly.
6) You've probably never trained your trapping against someone not from your style who is trying to beat your head in.

I classify traditional trapping in the same category as elbow destructions, and I think destructions are easier to pull off.

Here's a trap that will work:
1) Grap appendage that is in the way
2) Move appendage out of the way
3) Hit repeatedly

Nothing tricky, nothing particularly skillful. Just grab and strike.

[krys]

Ryan,
"As in any good martial arts there are techniques against graplers in W.C. ...."

What I wanted to say is that WC also teaches you to avoid getting caught, to move out, to react in that sitation.....

Besides what about this: let him catch you, hold you with both his hands, pull that litle knive you hide behind your belt and push it into his kidneys...


" I didn't think that anyone still believed in "anti-grappling." "


Maybe i do not understand what you are trying to say but i don't believe in grappling with a grappler if you are less skilled.

I've done bjj for a few year, free fights and can grapple, but if I get the feeling that the guy in front of me is better at it I'll avoid going to the ground at any price...
and in a self defense situation, you definitly don't want to go to the floor.....


"Most people's hands are nowhere near as fast as mine, and I can't do it."

You could really be surprised......

" but it is unrealistic to expect to be able to do it in a real fight, much less a self-defense situation "

I will repeat myself, trapping can be usefull given the right opportunity, it is just one of different tools you learn during your training... It would be foolish to count only on trapping to defeat your oponent.

Now I will comment some of your other points:

1) You probably aren't fast enough.
Maybe, that is relative,
I'm working for it...

My first bjj instructor has a very good background in boxing, fought against Sakuraba (but lost in the 3rd round). He told me that once he sparred against one WC instructor and got trapped .... and he is a very fast puncher.

3)"Your opponent disengages range."
Why let him disengage? Part of the WC training is focused on getting close to your opponent and controling his moves....

6) You've probably never trained your trapping against someone not from your style who is trying to beat your head in.

I periodically train against opponents from other arts and we do not play children games. WC is only one of the styles I practice, and not the one I have most experience.
I'm not looking forward to trapp my opponent from the start, if I can punch him or throw him I will do it right away, but if I can grab one of his hands and he makes the mistake of throwing a punch with the other over it, I get a chance to trap him, at least it already worked....

Christian.