Ngo Cho Kun

[yentao]

Re: Master Chee Kim Thong

Originally posted by Declan
Harimau:

I have heard those stories and many others about Master Chee's fighting prowess and also about his healing skills.

However, I don't like to repeat those stories outside of our school as I did not witness the events myself (even though I trust those who did witness them).

What I can say from my own experiences of meeting with and training under Master Chee that he truly embodied the Chinese saying: "In movement be as soft as cotton, on impact be as hard as steel."

When I last met him he was 80 years of age but as solid as a rock in his stance. Trying to get to grips with him was like trying to catch smoke, yet he was incredibly powerful. He was able to release tremendous force with just a tiny gesture. He was also a very kind and gentle man. It was a privilege to have known him.

Regards,

Declan

Every Ngo Cho Kun Grand Masters know quite a lot about Chinese medicines. Especially students of Chua Giok Beng. For example Sim Yong Tek which is the Master of Master Yap Cheng Hai before he went to Kuala Lumpur to learn under Master Chee.

I think Master Chee's Ngo Ki Lat was good and able to master the principles of the stance of Ngo Cho Kun. "To center the gravity and to stengthen Ngo Ki". The result of practicing Ngo Cho Kun for a long time especially low stances like Si Pieng Be and Chien Be.

That is how important stance is in NCK as a southern style.

[Harimau]

Declan, I was lucky enough to have my colleague bring me to meet Master Chee on a couple of occasions, so I can empathize with your description of the man.

I can personally testify as to Datuk Chee's skill in healing, as he treated my injured leg after several sessions with western-trained doctors had not been successful. He immediately identified the problem and "re-set" the bone alignment in a few minutes. The western doctors in contrast had been hemming and hawing and cautiously peering at x-rays, before shrugging their shoulders and telling me to leave it to nature.

Unfortunately, I never had the privilege of witnessing him perform Ngo Cho Kun, although I have watched Master Yap Cheng Hai, his student, perform an NKC form. Although Master Yap is quite old, I was very impressed with the whiplash nature of his strikes.

Regards,

Harimau

[Harimau]

Originally posted by Harimau
Have you heard of the Chee Kim Tong school? Datuk Chee also used to teach Wu Chu (not Wushu) and practice healing arts, he was quite a famous healer.

Oops, sorry guys. Just realized a mistake in earlier posts. I referred to "wu chu" twice, when I actually meant that Datuk Chee used to teach wu chi as well as NCK. Wu chu = NCK, of course , but wu chi as I understand it is a very soft, internal art like tai chi.

Declan, just out of interest, does your curriculum include wu chi?

Regards,

Harimau

[Declan]

Wuqiquan

Hi, Harimau.

You are correct in distinguishing between Wuzuquan (Ngo Cho Kun) and Wuqiquan.

Wuqiquan (meaning "Emptiness Fist") is an internal form of Shaolin which, like Taijiquan, is practised at a slow pace. Master Chee learned it from a famous blind monk (can't remember the details but I will check and post them later). My understanding is that Wuqiquan is an older system than Taijiquan and Master Chee used to refer to it as the "mother of Taijiquan".

As far as I know Wuqiquan is no longer practised in mainland China, as it was an obscure art even in Master Chee's youth. I don't think Master Chee was aware of anyone else who had learned it.

Master Chee passed the art of Wuqiquan on to many of his students, some of whom specialise in it. Most Wuzuquan instructors know some Wuqiquan (I know a little). Shifu Han encourages his Wuzuquan students to practise Wuqiquan also as Master Chee felt they complimented each other very well.

As with Wuzuquan, Wuqiquan is a very effective fighting system if you know how to apply it, although it can be practised just for health.

Regards,

Declan

[krys]

As far as I know the art of Wuqiquan was still practiced 7 years ago in Malaysia.
I met a chinese-malaysian in Kuala Terrenganu who performed it there....

All the best,
Christian.

[Declan]

Wuqiquan in Malaysia

Hi, Christian.

Thanks for your reply.

Master Chee moved to Malaysia from China in the 1940s and started teaching there in the 1950s. It's likely that the person you mentioned was one of his students.

Wuqiquan is practised in Malaysia, Britain, Ireland and Switzerland under Master Chee's name (perhaps other places too).

Regards,

Declan

[krys]

Hi Decan,

Do you know where the art is practiced in Britain, as well as Ngo Cho Kun?

Many thanks.
Christian.

[Declan]

Wuqiquan in Britain

Christian:

Wuzuquan is taught in Britain in the following locations:
West London (three locations, I think)
Maidstone, Kent
Shrewsbury, Shropshire
Barton-Under-Needwood, Staffordshire
Blackpool, Lancashire

The only regular class in Wuqiquan is taught in Barton-Under-Needwood. However, all Wuzuquan instructors also know Wuqiquan to some degree or other (depending on their level of interest). Apart from the class in Barton-Under-Needwood, Wuqi is usually taught as part of internal seminars.

Both Wuzuquan and Wuqiquan are taught in Britain under the auspices of Master Han, who was a senior disciple of Master Chee.

You can click on the "WWW" button below my message to go to my Wuzuquan web site.

Regards,

Declan

[Declan]

Wuzuquan (Ngo Cho Kun)

Christian:

With regard to some questions you raised in another thread...

Originally posted by krys

I did not that know there are different schools of Ngo Cho Kun and thought Alex Co is the G.M. of the system....

To my knowledge there are three basic branches of Wuzu (Ngo Cho):
The Beng Kiam school (of which Yentao is a member), which is based mainly in Southeast Asia (I think).
The Chee Kim Thong School (of which I am a member).
Various schools in Southern China (including the temple at Quanzhou).

Thus there is no single Grandmaster of the system, which wouldn't be possible anyway as Wuzu is practised significantly differently in the three schools... so differently that it could be argued that they are almost different systems.

I can only speak with any authority about the Chee Kim Thong school and all my comments and points of view below come from that school.

Originally posted by krys

This really sounds like Okinawan Karate.

Wuzu is practised as a "non-brute-force" system in the Chee Kim Thong school with a strong emphasis on "Neigong" (internal training), breathing exercises and sensitivity training. Of course, no internal system is without external training also (for example, the work-out the muscular-skeletal system gets during stance training, forms practise, bag-work or full-contact sparring). However, we do not use the "body tensioning" that Yentao refers to.

I have seen video footage of Wuzu being performed by practitioners from Southern China who use much bigger movements and what we (in the Chee Kim Thong school) would consider "brute force". This would appear to have more in common with Karate than with Wuzu as we know it.

Originally posted by krys

I understand that you try to cross the bridge quickly to go into arm contact.

Contacting the opponent's attacking limb is essential because the sensitivity training teaches you to "read" the opponent's force, thus enabling you to take him off balance before counter-striking. If you don't take your opponent's balance then you have simply dealt with the attacking limb, you have not dealt with your whole opponent. He still has three other limbs as well as his most powerful weapon, his mind (or rather his mental focus). When you take your opponent's balance, all the limbs are disabled and your attacker loses his mental focus while he tries to regain his balance, which he shouldn't achieve because your counter-strike has ended the fight.

One should also learn to read the opponent's intention in his eyes and interrupt his attack by closing on it. This upsets the opponent's plan of attack and gives him little chance to recover. We do also learn to cross the bridge to the opponent and take him off balance when he tries to deal with our attack.

Originally posted by krys

Is there also sensitivity training like in Wing Chun?

I don't know anything about Wing Chun but sensitivity training takes up at least 25% of any class I teach.

Originally posted by krys

Do you think Ngo Cho Kun would combine well with W.C.?

Why would you want to combine it with Wing Chun?

Regards,

Declan

[Declan]

Samchien

Originally posted by yentao
Sam Chien is the basic form of the art...

In the Chee Kim Thong school, Sanzhan (Samchien) is the most advanced form because it is equally representative of all five of the ancestral systems (Damo, Taizu, Luohan, Xingzhe, Baihe), it is equally representative of the five elements, it embodies Yin/Yang, the six combinations, the eight principles and iron-shirt training (Sanzhan in our school is not a tension form).

From a fighting art point of view, Sanzhan is the best Qigong exercise I know.

However, it is also the first form taught to beginners as they are expected to develop it as they progress. There are 108 hand forms in Wuzu (Ngo Cho). Very few people ever learn them all, but any time a student learns a form, they are expected to compare it with Sanzhan so they can develop a better understanding of Sanzhan.

Any time I teach students a new hand-to-hand combat technique, I ask them "Where have you seen that before?" When they cannot answer, I demonstrate a section of Sanzhan for them and the light dawns.

Master Chee used to say: "Wuzu begins and ends with Sanzhan".

Regards,

Declan

[Declan]

Origin of Wuzu (Ngo Cho)

Originally posted by yentao
About the origin. The version I most credited to is that Chua Giok Beng also known as (Chua Kiam) is the founder of Ngo Cho Kun. He traveled around China in search of masters to learn kung fu.
Encountering both northern and southern styles of Kung Fu these are Pe-ho, Tai Cho, Tai Sheng (3 from the southern part of China) Lohan and Tat Chun (2 from northern China). He called it five ancestor fist due to respect the five styles he learned.

According to Alexander L. Co's book "Five Ancestor Fist Kung Fu: The Way of Ngo Cho Kun", Chua Giok Beng was born in 1853. Master Co's book also shows the "family tree" of Shizu (a title which refers to a great master who is deceased) Chua's students down to the present day.

However, this family tree does not show Shizu Chee Kim Thong, who died in 2001. Shizu Chee told us that he had learned the art in Fujian from Shizu Lin Xian (1859 - 1964) and that Lin Xian had learned it from Shizu Jiu Yi Gong (1806 - 1912). Our tradition is that Shizu Jiu had learned it in the Fujian Shaolin temple.

How could Shizu Jiu have learned Wuzu before Shizu Chua was born if Shizu Chua really did found it?

How could Shizu Chee have known the 108 hand forms and all the weapons and Qigong of Wuzu if he does not appear on the "family tree" of Chua Giok Beng?

To say that Chua Giok Beng founded Wuzu is like a person saying "My grandfather was a great speaker of French. In fact, he invented the French language."

The only response can be: "If that's the case, how come so many French people who never met your grandfather can speak French? And how come they were speaking French in France before your grandfather was born?"

It is not my intention to belittle Shizu Chua or his great achievements; however, the theory that he founded Wuzu does not stand up to even a cursory examination of the facts.

Regards,

Declan

[krys]

Many thanks Declan,


I was actually looking for a class in Scotland but it seems Glasgow is really the wrong place to study martial arts.....

Is there also sensitivity training like in Wing Chun?


I don't know anything about Wing Chun but sensitivity training takes up at least 25% of any class I teach.

quote:Originally posted by krys

Do you think Ngo Cho Kun would combine well with W.C.?


Why would you want to combine it with Wing Chun?

Regards,

Declan

Actually in Wing Chun sensitivity training takes around 25-50% of the class.....

I practice Wing Chun (as well as filipino arts).... the point is I am going to move to the Philippines in one year and the W.C. schools I saw there didn't match my expectations....
On the other hand there are some good Ngo Cho Kun schools in the Philippines and I will probably take instruction in this art once I am there.

What I heard about Ngo Cho Kun is that it is a good close range fighting system, I just wanted to know if one can use Ngo Cho Kun without violating the center line-shortest
path principle of W.C.

Many thanks for your instructive response




All the best,
Christian.

[Declan]

Centre Line

Hi, Christian.

Wuzuquan teaches you to always protect the centre line but from my point of view Wing Chun keeps the elbows in too close to the chest, thus restricting arm movement and leaving other parts of the body exposed.

A colleague of mine once attended a Wing Chun class and they had to do an exercise similar to "sticky hands" where they were allowed to strike if they felt they had tied up their opponent's hands sufficiently. The Wing Chun students were so concerned about their centre-line that they forgot about the corners and my colleague constantly slapped them on the side of the head.

Their response: "You're not allowed to use circular shots!"

I wonder if they would try to tell an attacker in the street what he is allowed and not allowed to do.

Wuzuquan is very conscious of the vulnerability of the centre line, but not to the detriment of other targets.

Regards,

Declan

[Harimau]

Re: Samchien

Originally posted by Declan


In the Chee Kim Thong school, Sanzhan (Samchien) is the most advanced form because it is equally representative of all five of the ancestral systems (Damo, Taizu, Luohan, Xingzhe, Baihe), it is equally representative of the five elements, it embodies Yin/Yang, the six combinations, the eight principles and iron-shirt training (Sanzhan in our school is not a tension form).

Hi Declan, would you agree that Sanzhan is basically the same form as Sanchin in Okinawan karate? As I understand it, some Okinawan schools practice Sanchin with a lot of dynamic tension, others use more of a relaxed whiplash motion - this might point towards different chinese roots.

Regards,

Harimau

[Declan]

Sanzhan/Sanchin

Originally posted by Harimau

Hi Declan, would you agree that Sanzhan is basically the same form as Sanchin in Okinawan karate?

Hi, Harimau.

I have seen video footage of the Okinawan Sanchin form being performed (both types that you mentioned). It's possible that it is loosely based on Sanzhan; however, I don't believe it can be said that they are basically the same form for several reasons:
[list=1][*]Their back and shoulders were too rigid.[*]They had no concept of how to use the waist, in fact they didn't seem to use the waist at all.[*]Their centre of gravity rose visibly when they breathed in.[*]They appeared to breathe from the chest rather than the lower abdomen.[/list=1]

Even if the two forms had the same steps and could not be distinguished from each other in a series of still photographs, they could not be considered "basically the same form". A form is not about the individual positions. Instead it is about how the practitioner moves, how he breathes, how he uses the waist, his posture.

From the point of view of Wuzuquan, practioners of Sanchin miss the point (miss several points, in fact).

Regards,

Declan