Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ngo Cho Kun

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Re: Origin of Wuzu (Ngo Cho)

    Originally posted by Declan

    According to Alexander L. Co's book "Five Ancestor Fist Kung Fu: The Way of Ngo Cho Kun", Chua Giok Beng was born in 1853. Master Co's book also shows the "family tree" of Shizu (a title which refers to a great master who is deceased) Chua's students down to the present day.

    However, this family tree does not show Shizu Chee Kim Thong, who died in 2001. Shizu Chee told us that he had learned the art in Fujian from Shizu Lin Xian (1859 - 1964) and that Lin Xian had learned it from Shizu Jiu Yi Gong (1806 - 1912). Our tradition is that Shizu Jiu had learned it in the Fujian Shaolin temple.

    How could Shizu Jiu have learned Wuzu before Shizu Chua was born if Shizu Chua really did found it?

    How could Shizu Chee have known the 108 hand forms and all the weapons and Qigong of Wuzu if he does not appear on the "family tree" of Chua Giok Beng?
    To say that Chua Giok Beng founded Wuzu is like a person saying "My grandfather was a great speaker of French. In fact, he invented the French language."

    The only response can be: "If that's the case, how come so many French people who never met your grandfather can speak French? And how come they were speaking French in France before your grandfather was born?"

    It is not my intention to belittle Shizu Chua or his great achievements; however, the theory that he founded Wuzu does not stand up to even a cursory examination of the facts.

    Regards,
    Declan
    Finally. Master Chee which was not in the lineage simply he was not recognized by some. You said their are other masters senior to Chua right? Can you pls. show any evidence that he is not the founder? Pictures of these masters or any other lineage that agrees with you? There was not only just Beng Kiam lineage here. Are you aware of the Ten Tigers sir? Are you also aware of Ngo Ki Lat? Sam Chien means "three wars" right? Can you explian why is called like that? Your Sam Chien that I saw in your website is that all it or you just showing only a part of it?
    Last edited by yentao; 09-23-2003, 05:38 AM.

    Comment


    • You said 108 forms are there pls. list them all. The way you said Sam Chien is train is like saying that Sam Chien is a opening and closing form? Sam Chien should be train completely.

      Comment


      • Re: Origin of Wuzu (Ngo Cho)

        Originally posted by Declan


        How could Shizu Chee have known the 108 hand forms and all the weapons and Qigong of Wuzu if he does not appear on the "family tree" of Chua Giok Beng?

        Declan
        Because he did not learn under Chua? Simple right.

        Lin Xian and Jiu Yu Gong are fukienese right, I mean from Fukien?

        Pls. give me their fukienese names. Jiu Yu Gong learn from a Fukien Shaolin Temple? Which one?

        QUOTE]Originally posted by Declan


        It is not my intention to belittle Shizu Chua or his great achievements; however, the theory that he founded Wuzu does not stand up to even a cursory examination of the facts.
        [/QUOTE]

        How about Master Chee, his theory that who is the founder of Ngo Cho Kun does not stand up to even a cursory examination of the facts also. Actually there is some evidence that Chua is the founder. If you know the Ten Tigers then its quite enough evidence to say Chua is the founder dude.

        Not my intention to belittle Chee but there is quite a lot of things he should explain. Chee made contacts to some Ten Tigers lineages long time ago and I think Declan the way you say things won't pls. him if he is still alive. You should learn how to respect okay?

        Comment


        • Regarding the origin of Ngo Cho

          Yentao:

          You seem to be quite angry about what I wrote regarding whether Chua Giok Beng was the founder of Ngo Cho. I am sorry that my argument upset you; I had thought that the tone of my message was academic and respectful.

          Your responses seem to fall into two categories:[list=1][*]Regarding Chua Giok Beng and Chee Kim Thong[*]Regarding my personal knowledge of the Ngo Cho syllabus[/list=1]

          I shall answer them separately.

          1. Regarding Chua Giok Beng and Chee Kim Thong.
          My argument was that Chua Giok Beng could not have been the founder because Chee Kim Thong did not learn Ngo Cho from Chua or any of his lineage. I asked how Master Chee could have known so much about Ngo Cho if he had not learned from Chua or his students. Your response was:

          Because he did not learn under Chua? Simple right.
          That was precisely my point.

          2. Regarding my personal knowledge of the Ngo Cho syllabus
          This has nothing to do with my reasoned arguments about the origin of Ngo Cho. However, since you consider it important I shall respond.

          You asked me to list the 108 hand forms. I cannot because I don't know them all. My teacher, Shifu Han says that there are 108 hand forms. I wonder if he could be lying to me.

          You asked me if I understand the meaning of the name Sam Chien (I actually prefer the translation "Three Strategies"). Yes, I know what the three strategies are but seeing as I expect my students to figure that out for themselves rather than tell them outright, it would be pointless for me to explain it here where they can read it.

          The video clip of Sam Chien on my website is not the whole form, which is stated clearly on my website. The reason for not showing the whole form is partly because storage space is limited on my website and partly because I don't want people trying to learn the form from my website.

          At the end of your last message, you ask me to learn "how to respect". There was no intention of disrespect in my message and I don't believe any other readers would consider my message disrespectful or unreasonable. However, I have reported my own message to the moderators and if they should agree with you, I promise to cease posting messages in this forum.

          I have presented my argument regarding whether Chua Giok Beng founded Ngo Cho. You have presented yours. I don't believe further discussion between us on this point would clarify matters or be interesting for other readers. As far as I am concerned, the subject is closed.

          Kind regards,

          Declan

          Comment


          • hello ;-)

            im from kong han mrtl arts assn 944 zacateros st binondo manila...

            our lineage is as follows
            sizho chua giak bing
            our late GM Dr Lo Yan Chu
            our late GM Lo king Hui
            My present master Henry Lo

            beng kiam lineage has a lot in common w my lineage...our katas look almost the same(we have more fluid movements but its still the same)...both club have good comunications and relationship since Dr Lo yan Chu studied w bing kiam's GM...they studied under the same sihu

            i dont know...Kong Han has good ties w master tsai kim tang/tong...and also w master yap tsing hai...i cant say that the malaysian lineage is illegit but i respect our malaysian bros regardless of their lineage...sometimes things are lost during translation and transfer...but i suppose that master chee did learn from a legit sifu...

            our lineage is more focused on the external aspect of ngo tso kun...as it should be...the indo,sing,chinese lineages do the same as well...i dont know and i cant comment on the malaysian lineage...bec being a sifu,mater chee has the right to modify the art to his taste...

            i hope im not boasting of my lineage...when the kong han delegation was at shaolin temple(south)...our mainland chinese bros and monks actually learned a lot from master Henry Lo...infact Kong Han filled in lots of missing kunto's like the 5ft staff form unique to ngo chor etc...from what i know...many forms are lost in the chinese mainland bec of the cultural rev'tn...etc...masters moving to taiwan etc...therefor i can say that we have a solid form database and a solid lineage to back it up...i was told that sizho chua's house is still around preserved as a heritage site or something....

            i hope we can meet in nov in quanzhou shaolin temple...i have a very demanding job(3d animator)...and im not sure that i can be there this yr...if ever i will be...im easy to spot bec ill be doing ngo to tim tau or sam chien sip di/tai zu sam zhan shi er(as a HK ngo cho master says)...and i rarely shave ;-) and im a short stocky man ;-) only around 5'4 ;-) seeyah ;-)

            i hope we can meet...we are meeting people from singapore as well...people from the ko nai king/koh pi kok lineage(which is also under sizho chua)...

            bye bye...

            lets talk more about how forms vary amongst lineage...
            Last edited by Pitbullz; 09-24-2003, 06:07 AM.

            Comment


            • PS: i was also told by someone that somebody has been saying that Kong Han's ngo tso kun has some wushu in it...i will testify(as a desciple) that we dont have such...our forms are still look like they were decades ago...we dont do wushu or any other art in our club since it will offend our master and the masters before...as a matter of fact....our late Master Lo King Hui expelled A LOT of students trying to add wushu to Kong Han...it happened in the late 80's...its one of Kong Han's sadder times...losing lots of senior students and brothers...

              Comment


              • Re: Regarding the origin of Ngo Cho

                You asked why did Master Chee was not in the book of Alex Co.

                I came with this
                quote:
                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                Because he did not learn under Chua? Simple right.


                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                Now you don't understand it do you.

                Three Strategies? No, Three Wars or three battles your confusing it with fukien and mandarin.
                You said that


                "At the end of your last message, you ask me to learn "how to respect". There was no intention of disrespect in my message and I don't believe any other readers would consider my message disrespectful or unreasonable. However, I have reported my own message to the moderators and if they should agree with you, I promise to cease posting messages in this forum."



                You are not Chinese. For us talking about statements like this:

                [/QUOTE]Originally posted by Declan


                It is not my intention to belittle Shizu Chua or his great achievements; however, the theory that he founded Wuzu does not stand up to even a cursory examination of the facts.
                [/QUOTE]

                is disrespectful....

                [/QUOTE]Originally posted by Declan

                I have presented my argument regarding whether Chua Giok Beng founded Ngo Cho. You have presented yours. I don't believe further discussion between us on this point would clarify matters or be interesting for other readers. As far as I am concerned, the subject is closed.

                [/QUOTE]


                But what is done is done. So give me what I have ask for. Give me the Fukien names of Lin Xian and Jiu Yu Gong. The fukien shaolin temple Jiu studied from.

                You said you want some proof of Chua's theories now I want yours. So give it. Let your students know something through this forum. Let them know the truth. Now you don't turn your back and say the subject is closed.

                You are the one who started to say that Chua's theory that he founded Wuzu does not stand up to even a cursory examination of the facts. Just ask me then I'll answer you. But you should also answer what I ask to you, clear? I started this thread after all.

                Not angry,

                Yentao

                Comment


                • Hi Declan,



                  Wuzuquan teaches you to always protect the centre line but from my point of view Wing Chun keeps the elbows in too close to the chest, thus restricting arm movement and leaving other parts of the body exposed.

                  A colleague of mine once attended a Wing Chun class and they had to do an exercise similar to "sticky hands" where they were allowed to strike if they felt they had tied up their opponent's hands sufficiently. The Wing Chun students were so concerned about their centre-line that they forgot about the corners and my colleague constantly slapped them on the side of the head.

                  Their response: "You're not allowed to use circular shots!"

                  I wonder if they would try to tell an attacker in the street what he is allowed and not allowed to do.

                  Wuzuquan is very conscious of the vulnerability of the centre line, but not to the detriment of other targets.

                  Regards



                  In Wing Chun the body is divided into gates refering to the center line. Every part of the body is covered...

                  What happens is that often begining students are not shown how to deal with circular blows as the training concentrates heavily on linear punches in the early stages of learning the art....

                  Good Wing Chun practitioners know how to deal with circular attacks (we also use some)......

                  Those students just gave lame excuses because of their lack of knowledge, evrything is allowed in sparring...

                  I myself spared with a friend practicing ngo cho kun not so long ago, he couldn't penetrate my wing chun defences and I defeated him using silat catching techniques that he wasn't able to counter....
                  This does not mean my arts are better than his, just that he wasn't enough prepared...

                  Just wonder how sensitivity is taught in Wuzukwan?

                  All the best,
                  Christian.[
                  Last edited by krys; 09-23-2003, 08:46 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Christian your right. It has something to do with being prepared.

                    Anyway Declan,

                    You must have confused what your master said about the 108 forms.

                    I think he is talking about 108 hand techniques not the set forms or KUN-TO. Set forms (kun to) are the Sam Chien, Li Sip Kun, Song Sui Kun and etc. While the hand techniques includes : the Po Pai, Sang Cha, Double uppercut, etc.

                    yentao

                    Comment


                    • Chua Giok Beng as the founder of Ngo cho Kun

                      In Chua's lineage, he is the founder of his new NCK system. No doubt, Chua learned under the 5 schools of Nan Shaolin Wu Zu Quan in Fukien but he did create a new martial art system. This seperate his system from the old one. There are a lot of evidence which can be found and nobody seems to do research on it.
                      Among Chua's lineage, the hand teacnique and forms are the same though there are taught by different disciples.
                      The qpening and closing of the forms in Chua's lineage share the same meaning of representing the teachers from 5 NCK schools.
                      The most inportant evidence is Chua learned from Master Lim Ho Yang and Mdm Bak Tao as well as the 5 NCK schools. Ho Yang and Bak Tao are north shaolin kung fu from Sang Dong and NCK are south shaolin kung fu. It has no direct relation with NCK.
                      Chua did not claim that he create a new form of martial art. In fact, he respected the lineage of NCK and considered himself as a pratitionar of NCK. With the evidence shown in his new system, he did combine and create his own stye of martial art.
                      Master Chee's lineage is the Nan ssaolin Wu Zu Quan but it is not the same as the Chua's lineage. They are different system. As Chee's lineage has a long history and Chua could not founded the old NCK. It is not necessary to argue about the different among the lineage. When Master Chee visited Master Sim Yong Teck in singapore in the early 60s. This had been clarified. When we talk about Chua is the founder of NCK which means he is the founder of his own system.and not the whole NCK. The argument of Chua as the founder of his own system should based on the reseach of chua's system and not the history of NCK.

                      Comment


                      • Wasted energy

                        I have been a student of martial arts for 30 years now and the one thing I have learnt is that talking about martial arts is infinitely easier than practising it.

                        I have watched the discussion between Yentao and Declan unfold with a weary sense of familiarity. A well-meaning friend directed me to this forum. I have joined to post this one message and then I am going to leave.

                        I am a beginner in the art of Ngor Chor - I have barely 14 year's experience. Discussions of lineage are as worthless as discussion as to whether "my daddy is bigger than your daddy" in the school yard.

                        Declan has made some very thought-provoking and reasonable points in his posts, but my experience has shown me that when someone tells a man that he is wrong about something, that person is wasting their breath.

                        For either Yentao or Declan to climb down from their position is akin to them saying, "I have wasted a goodly portion of my adult life studying a sub-optimal system of martial arts. I did not have the native wit or intelligence to check the veracity of my lineage, I took a lot of information on faith and now I confuse that faith with fact." No man will ever say these things.

                        Do the smart thing. De-list from this worthless forum. You will not learn anythign here. Go back to your instructor / masters / grandmaster / great grandmaster and start training again.

                        Think of the hours you have wasted here - hours that could have been profitably spent training, thinking and resting.

                        My limited ubnderstanding of Ngor Chor includes an understanding that The Lady in The Green Dress is the unifying element of the art, and her motto was, "Silence is Golden"

                        Robo

                        Comment


                        • aaaah...another note...pls DONT compare ngo tzo kun w wing chun...they are 2 separate MA's w VERY diff priciples...and NO they are NOT related to each other(thats what i think)...some people keep on making rel between the 2 art..i dont know their basis...but its not connecting....common sense ;-)

                          lets talk about forms pls ;-) i am very curious about how other people practice their forms in their lineage/country or whatever...y? dunno...just thought it might be interesting to now :-)

                          Comment


                          • Pax

                            Well, as an ignorant outsider, I for one learnt quite a few interesting things in this forum, from both Declan and Yentao (at least before the vertical palm strikes started flying ).

                            From what LCK says, Yentao and Declan are BOTH right as to their respective lineages, and were actually comparing apples and oranges. (Pause, to enable Yentao and Declan to gang up and beat the crap out of me with Po Pai, Sang Cha, Double uppercut, etc ) So the whole affair may have stemmed from a simple misunderstanding, which is a pity. Up to that point it had been really heartening to see two clearly dedicated practitioners from different lineages exchange information in such an open and friendly manner.

                            Obviously, it's not my place to comment, but if Yentao and Declan agree with what LCK says, and pass this on to their students/juniors/ngo cho brethren, then surely this would help prevent similar arguments in future and bring the 2 lineages closer together in mutual respect. That in itself would make all these posts worthwhile, no?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by krys
                              I myself spared with a friend practicing ngo cho kun not so long ago, he couldn't penetrate my wing chun defences and I defeated him using silat catching techniques that he wasn't able to counter....
                              This does not mean my arts are better than his, just that he wasn't enough prepared...
                              [
                              Hi Christian, that's an interesting comment you make. Do you practice Filipino silat from the south? What are these catching techniques, actually?

                              Regards

                              Harimau

                              Comment


                              • Hello harimau,


                                Yes, I practice filipino silat from one of the southern islands....
                                Catching is one of our main weapons...

                                There are many catchs and they involve twisting and scooping techniques....

                                They are especially usefull against kicks.....
                                many of our blocks-deflections are designed to become catchs through sweeping and scooping motions....

                                I used something very basic against my opponent: caught his right arm with my right and pulled while finger jabbing him with my left, when he parried I caught the other arm , twisted both arms and sweeped.....


                                By the way are you practicing Harimau silat from Sumatra?

                                All the best,
                                Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.
                                Christian.
                                Last edited by krys; 09-24-2003, 03:54 PM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X