Chin-na

[platinum_angel]

ok first of all lets disect the word chin-na. chin-na means to seize and hold, the chin part of the name means "to seize" and the na part means "to hold". so from that we can establish that is is some form of grappling art. really its another branch of kund-fu. though there is more to this interpretation because it includes a broad array or tech for immobilizing and or finishing off your opponent and they include twisting limbs, tearing tendons, gouging eyes, manipulating pressure points and attacking vulnerable body parts. it differs from bjj in the way that it does not have have as much depth on the ground. but it does has more standing submission than bjj and also includes kicking, punching, and also emphasizes in "dirty fighting".

if anyone would like to add anything that would be good. exspecially from someone who trained in the art.

[Declan]

Regarding Chin-Na

Hi, Platinum Angel.

Chin-Na is not a martial art in itself. Rather it is an aspect of Chinese combat tactics. Anyone who practises a Chinese martial art should have an understanding of Chin-Na.

Only two aspects of Chin-Na are related to grappling:
Techniques for tearing the tendons and muscles.
Techniques for dislocating or breaking bones.

However, you correctly point out that there are other aspects of Chin-Na which are more relating to striking than grappling:
Techniques for interrupting your opponent's blood flow by attacking the major blood vessels.
Techniques for interrupting your opponent's ability to breathe.
Techniques for interrupting your opponent's flow of energy by attacking acupuncture points and meridians.

Chin-Na is not designed to obtain a "standing submission" from the opponent as you seem to suggest. Grappling arts today seem to be more about getting a submission out of a single opponent in a ring (or cage) in front of an audience.

Neither Chin-Na nor any other aspect of Chinese martial arts was designed to obtain a submission. It was designed to win a fight quickly by destroying the opponent.

Chinese martial arts were designed to despatch the opponent as quickly as possible on the battlefield before his friends could come to his aid. What would be the point on the battlefield of rolling around on the ground seeking a submission from one enemy when there are hundreds of them around you with spears and swords? There is no time for such things.

Another reason Chinese martial arts don't emphasise ground fighting is that if you have trained your stance to be firm, your waist to be supple, your blocks to be effective and your strikes to be powerful, your opponent should go down without taking you with him.

People who say that fights always end up on the ground don't know how to hit and don't know how to stand so they have to rely on grappling. Fair enough, if that's how they want to fight.

With regard to "dirty fighting":
When I used to train at university, my friends in the Karate club would sometimes spar with us but then accuse us of "dirty fighting" because we used what they considered "dishonorable" tactics (I once spat a sweet I was sucking at a friend who insisted that I spar with him there and then; while he tried to cover his face from the sticky sweet, I gently tapped in the groin with my foot. Fight over).

In Chinese martial arts there is no such thing as "dirty fighting", just staying alive and doing anything to achieve that.

Kind regards,

Declan[list=1][/list=1]

[chris davis 200]

Good post Declan.

Nice to see another advocate of the Chinese arts here.

I see you are an external stylist. I am an internal stylist.

cheers
chris

[Declan]

Me? External?

Hi, Chris.

Thanks for your message.

Actually, I practise Wuzuquan (Five Ancestors Fist) which is practised as an internal system in our school (Chee Kim Thong).

Kind regards,

Declan

[chris davis 200]

Oops,

Oh right - good stuff - sorry didnt really look at your site just flicked to it.

I train Yin Ba gua, Hsing I and Tai chi.

cheers
chris

[Declan]

All excellent stuff, Chris.

Regards,

Declan

[Szczepankiewicz]

People who say that fights always end up on the ground don't know how to hit and don't know how to stand so they have to rely on grappling.

Can you please explain this statement?

Thanks,

Spanky

[Declan]

Standing

Hi, Spanky.

People who say that fights always end up on the ground don't know how to hit and don't know how to stand so they have to rely on grappling.

What I meant by the quote above is as follows:

Some fighters believe that all fights end up on the ground.

From the point of view of traditional Chinese martial arts, you should train your stance so that you have a firm grip on the ground with the feet. This is referred to as "rooting".

However, rooting alone is not sufficient to make you solid in your position. If you have a rigid waist, you will not have to suppleness to be able to deflect an opponent's force. So you could still be "bowled over" by a strong opponent.

In addition to a strong stance and a flexible waist, you should have good posture so that your centre of gravity is stable.

If you have trained these things consistently over time, as well as training the sensitivity of the arms to be able to sense the direction of an opponent's force and deflect it, it should be very difficult indeed for an opponent to take you to the ground.

Thus, someone who is easily taken to the ground does not know how to stand.

With regard to hitting, if you land one or two blows on your opponent and find he does not fall and you have to rely on throwing to put him down, the problem is either:[list=a][*]You lack power[*]You are poor at targeting[*]Both of the above[/list=a]

Traditional Chinese martial arts would say that you should improve your hitting AND your throwing and not rely exclusively on throwing or other take-downs.

This is what I mean when I say:
"People who say that fights always end up on the ground don't know how to hit and don't know how to stand so they have to rely on grappling."

Kind regards,

Declan

[Great Sage]

Re: Regarding Chin-Na

Originally posted by Declan
Chin-Na is not a martial art in itself. Rather it is an aspect of Chinese combat tactics. Anyone who practises a Chinese martial art should have an understanding of Chin-Na.

I agree. Chi-Na is simply a term that applies to a specific strategy.

Originally posted by Declan
Chinese martial arts were designed to despatch the opponent as quickly as possible on the battlefield before his friends could come to his aid. What would be the point on the battlefield of rolling around on the ground seeking a submission from one enemy when there are hundreds of them around you with spears and swords? There is no time for such things.

While that may be true, we’re no longer fighting in medieval battlefields. Each art has it’s time and place. In the present world, the battleground is the ring, or cage more often than none.

Originally posted by Declan
Another reason Chinese martial arts don't emphasise ground fighting is that if you have trained your stance to be firm, your waist to be supple, your blocks to be effective and your strikes to be powerful, your opponent should go down without taking you with him.

All the stance training in the world cannot prevent somone from tackling you down with their weight and full force. Furthermore, the idea of ALL martial arts is that the opponent will go down, but that’s easier said than done.

Originally posted by Declan
People who say that fights always end up on the ground don't know how to hit and don't know how to stand so they have to rely on grappling. Fair enough, if that's how they want to fight.

Now, you’re just being ignorant... Grappling is a form of martial art. Why would a grappler trade punches when he can tie a person in knots? By your logic, birds can only fly away because they can’t deal with humans... No shiet, Sherlock. Unfortunately, I’ve heard your type of opinions before and they don’t hold much weight in the reality of things.

You see, I’ve experienced professional level kung-fu before and nothing suggests that it is anymore lethal than the next art. The whole idea of “our techniques only work in the streets” is a cop-out because no notable kung-fu man has defeated other professional martial artist, let alone street thugs.

Originally posted by Declan
With regard to "dirty fighting":
When I used to train at university, my friends in the Karate club would sometimes spar with us but then accuse us of "dirty fighting" because we used what they considered "dishonorable" tactics (I once spat a sweet I was sucking at a friend who insisted that I spar with him there and then; while he tried to cover his face from the sticky sweet, I gently tapped in the groin with my foot. Fight over).

In Chinese martial arts there is no such thing as "dirty fighting", just staying alive and doing anything to achieve that.

With all due respect, most university martial arts programs are simply for health and fitness. The fact that you resorted to “dirty techniques” is a clear indication of your insecurities. Sparring matches are meant to hone one’s skills and test reflexes, timing, etc... The objective is not to kill, maim or even defeat your opponent, in some instances. I can see why such a club would resent your dishonorable tactics. A person goes to the gym to develop their kicks and someone spits in their eye and taps their groin... How uncivilized...

On another note, what makes you believe that dirty tactics are limited to kung-fu? Dirty tactics are found in just about every martial art, including boxing, judo and even TKD. Do they really work? Maybe, maybe not. I doubt a spit-ball would deter a boxer from closing in with mutliple punches, or a grappler from his shoot... After being slapped into a rear naked choke, see how many dirty tactics you can think of in that position? You have less than 3 seconds, with your arms, head and legs immobilized before your body goes into shock.

[Szczepankiewicz]

I appreciate your response.

Your initial post reads like a passive agressive troll.

However, after your clarification it makes much more sense and seems more informational.

Best,

Spanky

[Great Sage]

Re: Standing

Originally posted by Declan
From the point of view of traditional Chinese martial arts, you should train your stance so that you have a firm grip on the ground with the feet. This is referred to as "rooting".

However, rooting alone is not sufficient to make you solid in your position. If you have a rigid waist, you will not have to suppleness to be able to deflect an opponent's force. So you could still be "bowled over" by a strong opponent.

In addition to a strong stance and a flexible waist, you should have good posture so that your centre of gravity is stable.

If you have trained these things consistently over time, as well as training the sensitivity of the arms to be able to sense the direction of an opponent's force and deflect it, it should be very difficult indeed for an opponent to take you to the ground.

Declan,

Unfortunately, I don’t believe you have sufficient knowledge of grappling to theorize about it. You speak of developing postures, stance and waist... These are all static postures that will only get you tackled to the ground.

The KEY to avoid being taken down is none of the above. You need excellent footwork (even boxers can’t help but be taken down) and great sprawling technique.

Originally posted by Declan
Thus, someone who is easily taken to the ground does not know how to stand.

I beg to differ. You need mobility.

Originally posted by Declan
With regard to hitting, if you land one or two blows on your opponent and find he does not fall and you have to rely on throwing to put him down, the problem is either:[list=a][*]You lack power[*]You are poor at targeting[*]Both of the above[/list=a]

If such a scenario were true, I would greatly emphasize it. By your assumation, kung-fu people NEVER trade blows with people who don’t go down. So what happens when the person doesn’t go down? And kung-fu people aren’t known for their punching power either. As a boxer, if landed a solid combination and the guy was still standing, it would mean he’s pretty durable. If the opportunity presented itself, I would take the fight to the ground where I can break him down. It doesn’t mean any of the things you’ve mentioned... It’s simply strategy.

Originally posted by Declan
Traditional Chinese martial arts would say that you should improve your hitting AND your throwing and not rely exclusively on throwing or other take-downs.

I tend to advocate working towards your individual strengths... Not everyone hits like Mike Tyson, nor does everyone grapple like Rickson Gracie. And while it is true, that you should develop punching power if you lack it, you should be doing more to hone your best strengths.

I also tend to avoid throwing techniques... I don’t care what anyone says, there’s no truth in a 100 lb person throwing a 300 lb person. Your best bet is to keep things simple and towards your strength.

[chris davis 200]

While that may be true, we’re no longer fighting in medieval battlefields. Each art has it’s time and place. In the present world, the battleground is the ring, or cage more often than none.

I would say that the street was a more important battle ground to concider than the ring - if you are not a competition fighter does that mean you are not an effectice fighter?

All the stance training in the world cannot prevent somone from tackling you down with their weight and full force.

I thik you are imagining that the person rooting would be static and going to try and meet the force of a tackle head on - that would just be stupid - i think what he is getting at is that with a strong root AND mobility - you should be able to avoid this tyupe of attack being effective.

You see, I’ve experienced professional level kung-fu before and nothing suggests that it is anymore lethal than the next art. The whole idea of “our techniques only work in the streets” is a cop-out because no notable kung-fu man has defeated other professional martial artist

Please explain to me 'proffessional level kung fu' this means nothing at all to me - what it means is that someone has made a business out of kung fu not that they profficient in it.

The fact that no 'notible kung fu guy' has gone into the ring at UFC or Pride means nothing - it just means that they have no real interest in showing off in a ring or competition fighting. Not everyone does!

I am not sure about the tactics that he has used - there is a difference between sparring with a guy and spitting in his face.

But many 'dirty tactics' are not really that - it is just training for the worst case scinario. If nothing else works then ripping someones balls off - or sticking your thumbs in their eyes just might!

many good points though sage.

cheers
Chris Davis

[Szczepankiewicz]

a strong root AND mobility

How in the hell does one manage that???


You're either moving or you're not. We have times where we do not want to be moved and we act accordingly. We have times when we do want to move/be moved and the likewise is true.

How does one become rooted yet able to move around?


What the heck are you burning in the incense bowl Chris!?!?

Spanky

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by chris davis 200
I would say that the street was a more important battle ground to concider than the ring - if you are not a competition fighter does that mean you are not an effectice fighter?

Yes, street defense and awareness is probably more important if you’re an average MA person. And No, competition doesn’t make a fighter... But the point I was making was not that. In today’s modern society, it’s very unlikely that you’ll encounter a situation that presents itself to most of your martial arts techniques. Real street assualts are quick and uncertain — READ my post regarding “the Truth About Street Fighting.” It’s not just an essay I decided to write. It’s a product of research, personal insight and professional opinions.

Originally posted by chris davis 200
I thik you are imagining that the person rooting would be static and going to try and meet the force of a tackle head on - that would just be stupid - i think what he is getting at is that with a strong root AND mobility - you should be able to avoid this tyupe of attack being effective.

I know what rooting implies – strong stances with quick footwork. My brother has trained in kung-fu his entire life and rubbed some of it off on me. However, I tend to disagree that it is enough to thwart people from tackling you down. Someone who is content on taking you down will eventually succeed, unless you knock him out ofcourse.

Originally posted by chris davis 200
Please explain to me 'proffessional level kung fu' this means nothing at all to me - what it means is that someone has made a business out of kung fu not that they profficient in it.

It means people who are regarded in kung-fu circles as masters, or sanshou fighters. People who train for the fight and put their skills to test... Some of these people, like sanshou fighters, understand the reality of combat and ring sport. Some, like grandmasters of their own art, are only preaching theories. I tend to have more faith in a guy that has professional fights, when in a street confrontation, because he’s dealt with adrenaline, getting hit and such...

Originally posted by chris davis 200
The fact that no 'notible kung fu guy' has gone into the ring at UFC or Pride means nothing - it just means that they have no real interest in showing off in a ring or competition fighting. Not everyone does!

Yes, that may be true.... But we can also guess that there’s very few that can compete and win. A person who has the ablility to win fame and fortune will mostl likely try.

Originally posted by chris davis 200
I am not sure about the tactics that he has used - there is a difference between sparring with a guy and spitting in his face.

But many 'dirty tactics' are not really that - it is just training for the worst case scinario. If nothing else works then ripping someones balls off - or sticking your thumbs in their eyes just might!

Sure, I believe in combat & survival training... But spitting at someone in a karate atmosphere isn’t the place, especially when your partner has already indicated that such techniques were not admisable. There’s a time and place for everything.

[Declan]

Tone

Spanky:

Apologies if the tone of my original message didn't seem appropriate. I do try to maintain a respectful tone even if I am expressing a difference of opinion.

Unfortunately, this medium is limited when it comes to tone.

Thanks for your message.

Regards,

Declan