Chin-na

[Declan]

Great Sage:

You clearly know more than me, otherwise you woudn't be called "Great Sage".

However, allow me to respond on a couple of points:

In the present world, the battleground is the ring, or cage more often than none.

That may apply to you, but not to me.

Now, you’re just being ignorant...

No need to be rude.

Why would a grappler trade punches when he can tie a person in knots?

Of course a superior grappler would easily defeat someone who doesn't know how to hit and how to stand. No argument there.

I’ve experienced professional level kung-fu before and nothing suggests that it is anymore lethal than the next art.

I don't know what you mean by "professional level". However, you obviously haven't met some of the masters I have met. I don't believe one art is necessarily superior to another. A poor Kung Fu practitioner could be defeated by the average untrained thug in the street, never mind someone trained in grappling.

With all due respect, most university martial arts programs are simply for health and fitness.

In your opinion. Have you ever been to University College Dublin? Were you there when I was there? Did you witness my friend asking me to test himself against me?

The fact that you resorted to “dirty techniques” is a clear indication of your insecurities.

Again, no need to be rude. You know nothing about me. The point I was making to my friend at the time is that fighting is not about bowing, taking a stance at a respectable distance and commencing on the command "Hajime". I would never have done such a thing in training, but we weren't training.

On another note, what makes you believe that dirty tactics are limited to kung-fu?

I never said they were.

I doubt a spit-ball would deter a boxer from closing in with mutliple punches, or a grappler from his shoot...

Firstly, it was a sweet (candy, if you are in the USA), not a spitball. Seondly, I wasn't implying that the sum total of my defence was spitting a sweet! Is that what you inferred? The point was that the spitting of the sweet was totally unexpected by my opponent and while he tried to deal with that, he was totally unaware of the groin kick which followed.

After being slapped into a rear naked choke, see how many dirty tactics you can think of in that position?

You seem to have inferred that I think "dirty tricks" are the sum total of my repertoire. Please read my post again.

Kind regards,

Declan

[Szczepankiewicz]

What the hell were you doing with candy in the training hall???

For shame!!!

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by Declan
That may apply to you, but not to me.

I’m not talking about either of us... I’m referring to fighting that involves martial artists in general... Around the world, most fights that involve a martial artist is in an arena attended by spectators.

Originally posted by Declan
No need to be rude.

My apologies... I just felt you needed a wake-up call.

Originally posted by Declan
I don't know what you mean by "professional level". However, you obviously haven't met some of the masters I have met. I don't believe one art is necessarily superior to another. A poor Kung Fu practitioner could be defeated by the average untrained thug in the street, never mind someone trained in grappling.

During my fight days, I had the fortune of rubbing elbows with a lot of martial artists from all walks of life, sytles, etc... Most of the guys that I grew to admire were proven in the ring with their hard work and effective training. I realized over the years that while every technique can be made to work, there are better, faster and easier ways of doing things. For instance, a tiger claw can be made lethal after years of sand training and tree raking... But, within that same amount of time, boxing punches can be honed to generate power, speed and efficiency.

Originally posted by Declan
In your opinion. Have you ever been to University College Dublin? Were you there when I was there? Did you witness my friend asking me to test himself against me?

You’re right, I wasn’t there, thankfully... But the fact is, colleges don’t teach their martial artists to engage in real fights. I’m sure they’re aware that everyone joins for specific reasons. Are we to assume that at your particular college, everyone is a fighter or the training is specifically for fighting purposes? I highly doubt it.

Originally posted by Declan
Again, no need to be rude. You know nothing about me. The point I was making to my friend at the time is that fighting is not about bowing, taking a stance at a respectable distance and commencing on the command "Hajime". I would never have done such a thing in training, but we weren't training.

I made my comments, based soley upon what you described. First of all, the fact that your friend considered your tactics “dishonorable” signifies that he thought the two of you were engaging in a sparring match. Also, the fact that he would even begin to bow and performin ettiquettes, indicates that a sparring session was in process. But if you weren’t training, why didn’t you just establish that it was going to be a real fight, pitting two different styles?

Originally posted by Declan
[BI never said they were. [/B]

No, but you were quick to illustrate how kung-fu could be doing all these “dirty tactics” while the other guy was bowing, or what not—an inclination of your intentions.

Originally posted by Declan
[BIFirstly, it was a sweet (candy, if you are in the USA), not a spitball. Seondly, I wasn't implying that the sum total of my defence was spitting a sweet! Is that what you inferred? The point was that the spitting of the sweet was totally unexpected by my opponent and while he tried to deal with that, he was totally unaware of the groin kick which followed.[/B]

No, I’m not from the USA, that’s why I can hardly explain myself in English... Secondly, I’m not aware of a sweet, as I don’t endulge in candy as often as I used to. Thirdly, your point of an unexpectant attack using the sweet is pointless and moot, because anyone of any style can do that and it has nothing to do with style. I could spit a wad at a guy and kick him and it would have nothing to do with the fact that I’m a kung-fu person and he’s a karate person.. I has everything to do with the fact that he reacts poorly.

Originally posted by Declan
[BIYou seem to have inferred that I think "dirty tricks" are the sum total of my repertoire. Please read my post again.
[/B]

This is the impression you gave me... Since you went into all the great details of your techniques and at the first sign of a confrontation, you resorted to spitting a sweet.

[chris davis 200]

How in the hell does one manage that???

Go to a ba gua school and ask!

You're either moving or you're not. We have times where we do not want to be moved and we act accordingly. We have times when we do want to move/be moved and the likewise is true.

How does one become rooted yet able to move around?

Well - basically the mechanics of rooting are not limited to static postures.

In ba gua movement is constant but routing is still maintained.

It is very hard for me to explain the mechanics of this here - it would take a rather lengthy article.

It has to do with hip power, dynamic tension in the tendons and the ability to hold this tension throughout all steps.

This is also showing in Hsing I to an extent, but least in tai chi. Tai chi have a good route and a very flexable body to manipulate around attacks, again routed And mobile - but in a different way.

But we can also guess that there’s very few that can compete and win.

we can guess this but it is not correct or incorrect - assumption - again - means little.

Sure, I believe in combat & survival training... But spitting at someone in a karate atmosphere isn’t the place, especially when your partner has already indicated that such techniques were not admisable. There’s a time and place for everything.

I agree with you there.

It means people who are regarded in kung-fu circles as masters, or sanshou fighters.

Unfortunatley many san shou fighters are rarely masters.

As i am sure you are aware - the real guys rarely compete or proclaim themselves masters - most are not really known.

person who has the ablility to win fame and fortune will mostl likely try.

Um - no i would definatley not agree with this - that is such a generalisation - most masters have businesses, religion and families that are more important to them that getting in the ring to prove themselves. That is more of a western phenomina.

Cheers
chris

[Declan]

Read my words!

Everyone:

What's the point in participating in a discussion forum if you are not willing to take the time to read what a person has actually written?

Spanky:

What the hell were you doing with candy in the training hall??? For shame!!!

I never said we were in a training hall at the time. Read my words! In fact, we were at a bus stop.


Great Sage:

the fact that he would even begin to bow and performin ettiquettes, indicates that a sparring session was in process.

I never said he had bowed. Read my words! In fact he went straight into a fighting stance in order to make me react.

why didn’t you just establish that it was going to be a real fight, pitting two different styles?

I never said we hadn't. Read my words! In fact, he had established that already... or rather, pitting him against me, rather than Karate against Kung Fu.

I’m not from the USA, that’s why I can hardly explain myself in English...

Actually, I think you explain yourself very well in English.

your point of an unexpectant attack using the sweet is pointless and moot, because anyone of any style can do that and it has nothing to do with style. I could spit a wad at a guy and kick him and it would have nothing to do with the fact that I’m a kung-fu person and he’s a karate person.. I has everything to do with the fact that he reacts poorly.

I never said it was specific to Kung Fu. Read my words!

you went into all the great details of your techniques and at the first sign of a confrontation, you resorted to spitting a sweet.

That was a specific example designed to illustrate that what one person calls "dirty tricks" another person simply calls "doing whatever it takes to win the fight". It was not my "first sign of a confrontation". You shouldn't take a single example, intended to make a specific point about a specific topic, and extrapolate someone's entire character and repertoire from it.

I'm sorry I used that example now, I have other less colourful ones I could have used, but I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

It reminds me of a joke I once heard...

Sean has invited a friend from abroad to visit him in Ireland. As they are driving along from the airport, Sean says:
"Do you see that bridge? I built that bridge. But do they call me Sean the Bridge Builder? No."
After a while, Sean says:
"Do you see that mural? I painted that mural. But do they call me Sean the Mural Painter ? No."
A little while later, Sean says:
"Do you see that hospital? I built that hospital. But do they call me Sean the Hospital Builder? No... but just one damned goat...!"

Regards,

Declan

[ryanhall]

I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

Nobody ever expects the Spanish Inquisition!

[Great Sage]

Re: Read my words!

Originally posted by chris davis 200
we can guess this but it is not correct or incorrect - assumption - again - means little.

It means even less when we’ve never seen it.

Originally posted by chris davis 200
Unfortunatley many san shou fighters are rarely masters.

Nor do they need to be... Sanshou fighters are better fighters than their wushu counterparts.

Originally posted by chris davis 200
As i am sure you are aware - the real guys rarely compete or proclaim themselves masters - most are not really known.

No, I’m not aware of this... The guys that compete do so for a reason.. They’re good at what they do. How do you profess to know someone’s good unless you’ve seen what they can do? Word of mouth maybe? Sorry, I’m not that gullible. I’m just curious how you can surmise that someone’s good if they’ve never been in competition or known? Simply teaching from a cave doesn’t signify greatness.

Originally posted by chris davis 200
Um - no i would definatley not agree with this - that is such a generalisation - most masters have businesses, religion and families that are more important to them that getting in the ring to prove themselves. That is more of a western phenomina.

I beg to differ... The whole point of martial arts schools is to make money. All that other junk is secondary. If a kung-fu master truly felt that his techniques were superior, he would compete.

Originally posted by Declan
Great Sage:
I never said he had bowed. Read my words! In fact he went straight into a fighting stance in order to make me react.

Must I re-illerate you again... You used your spitting tactic against the idea of bowing and other karate ettiquettes... That’s what I responded to.

Originally posted by Declan
I never said we hadn't. Read my words! In fact, he had established that already... or rather, pitting him against me, rather than Karate against Kung Fu.

Then what was the entire purpose of explaining all the kung-fu stuff and the fact that your friend was in a karate club?

Originally posted by Declan
Actually, I think you explain yourself very well in English.

It’s called sarcasm... In case you’re not from the United States.

Originally posted by Declan
I never said it was specific to Kung Fu. Read my words!

You inclined it with your examples.

Originally posted by Declan
That was a specific example designed to illustrate that what one person calls "dirty tricks" another person simply calls "doing whatever it takes to win the fight". It was not my "first sign of a confrontation". You shouldn't take a single example, intended to make a specific point about a specific topic, and extrapolate someone's entire character and repertoire from it.

What’s this got to do with kung-fu and karate then? Obviously, you mentioned that your friend did karate for a reason? The first sign of confrontation remark was a figure of speech... And I thought you were from the USA?

[Szczepankiewicz]

I never said we were in a training hall at the time. Read my words! In fact, we were at a bus stop.

Did you say you were at a bus stop?

Do you routinely train at a bus stop???


I don't like spam Ryan!

[Szczepankiewicz]

Chris,

obviously you internal guys have a different definition of what the word rooted means!

Are you using it in the context of maintaining balance and stance integrity?

[Great Sage]

Re: Regarding Chin-Na

Declan,

Here are your exact words... Isn't this an implication that you were sparring at a University? I think so. You mentioned that friends at a karate club would "spar with you..." And then, a few posts later, you say it was actually at a bus stop... It seems rather peculiar, if you ask me. Again, your friend insisted that you "SPAR" with him...

Originally posted by Declan
When I used to train at university, my friends in the Karate club would sometimes spar with us but then accuse us of "dirty fighting" because we used what they considered "dishonorable" tactics (I once spat a sweet I was sucking at a friend who insisted that I spar with him there and then; while he tried to cover his face from the sticky sweet, I gently tapped in the groin with my foot. Fight over).

[IPON]

Great sage I would have to disagree with your point regarding schools there are a lot of master that do not feel it is necessary to "prove" there style to anyone and do not look teaching as a franchise opportunity...but teach for the art.

I do agree that there are also a large number of people that would not want to be tested becuase it would show how weak they are as practicioners. Realistically the view that everything should be proven in a ring is new and to be honest silly, not everyone wants to compete nor should they. I mean if a grandmaster is 70yrs old he should get in a ring with a fighter of 25 and if he loses that a reflection of the style. People look at martial arts in a variety of ways and you are also diconting budo or philosophy. If you only look at an art to be applied in life/death situations then it would not make sense to compete.

Remember....alot of this started with teh Gracie Challenge that Gracies could not be beaten (though Helio was beaten twice on record). and when the UFC started that was the pitch "Your style is no good if don't compete agaist ours". The ring is strategy I am tired of people on the threads talking about "Real" combat when you have strategy, rules and tim limits (or unlimited). Real fight are fast.

You want to prove a style fight to the death then we will know who is superior.

Bruce Lee was asked about fighhting Muhamad Ali as said if I fight him in the ring his style he willbeat me bad.........If I fight him [on the street] by my rule I beat him bad.

[IPON]

Sage no disrespect meant...I was venting a little but not at you justy a long day

[huey]

from great sage

I also tend to avoid throwing techniques... I don’t care what anyone says, there’s no truth in a 100 lb person throwing a 300 lb person. Your best bet is to keep things simple and towards your strength

i have seen a 450 lb man thrown by a forty eight year old weighing 205...
a 400 lb man thrown by a man weighing 250 was thrown in the bjj world championships in 2002 brazil.
a 160 lb 5' 7" 76 year old man threw a 310 lb 6'3" 35 year old man by his head over his own head.
now granted the forty eight year old and the 76 year old were both masters in shou shu but it did happen.

from declan

Traditional Chinese martial arts would say that you should improve your hitting AND your throwing and not rely exclusively on throwing or other take-downs.

what about shuai chiao? chinese wrestling. it is a traditional chinese martial art that is all about throwing. it is also the basic fundamentals that influenced the judo and bjj of today. it resembles judo in that it requires one opponent to try and throw the other. not many strikes but lots of throws.

People who say that fights always end up on the ground don't know how to hit and don't know how to stand so they have to rely on grappling.

i don't know about the lack of ability in the striking and stances area because i know some great takedown artists, but i have also heard from bjj and judo practitioners that 9 out of ten fights end up on the ground. i have been a bouncer for ten years and seen at least 200 fights (been involved in about 25 more like in the middle of riots while defending myself) only about ten of those have been a wrestling or submission situations where one side wanted to arm bar or key lock the other. about 50 of those were people trying to choke the other out, half of those were stopped by another jumping in and hitting those guys or kicking those guys doing the choking. the other half (and more) were from us (the crew) halting people from continuing their involvement in the altercations. about 75- 85 of those fights that are left went to the ground only when one guy hit another and he went down or to sleep.
my own point of view much like everyone elses will probably differ from everyone elses. anyway, wasn't the thought on this one, that of chin na?

[chris davis 200]

Nor do they need to be... Sanshou fighters are better fighters than their wushu counterparts.

man o man - WuShu is a gymnastic sport! here we go - Great Sage. huh

No, I’m not aware of this... The guys that compete do so for a reason.. They’re good at what they do. How do you profess to know someone’s good unless you’ve seen what they can do? Word of mouth maybe? Sorry, I’m not that gullible. I’m just curious how you can surmise that someone’s good if they’ve never been in competition or known? Simply teaching from a cave doesn’t signify greatness.

I know someone is a master when they have been in Many many DOCUMENTED real fights! Getting in the ring proves that you can fight to the rules of the organiser. Many people do not NEED to prove themselves.

Many masters do not say that they are great or proffess to be something, they are humble people with no AGENDA! why would they want to PROVE their art to a bunch of neanderthals shouting for blood - Especially when they have fought for real many times?

- these people do not live in the US generally - they are not interested in making a quick buck - That is for the likes of Mc dojo's and - well quite obviously - you!

I beg to differ... The whole point of martial arts schools is to make money. All that other junk is secondary. If a kung-fu master truly felt that his techniques were superior, he would compete.

You are really off the mark with this one - The schools i train at make vertually NO profit - If the point was to make money then surely the standard would not be there - the focus would be money!

Again missing the point - Kung fu masters are not saying their techniques are superior - YOU are saying they are inferior! there is a major difference!

If they were saying - WE ARE THE BEST - then fine - but i have never met a single internal arts master that has said this - and i doubt you have either!

Chris,

obviously you internal guys have a different definition of what the word rooted means!

Are you using it in the context of maintaining balance and stance integrity?

No this is exactley what i mean - but not a static root - a dynamic one -

Whatever that means!

Cheers
Chriis

[Great Sage]

I get the impression that YOU all think I’m saying Internal Martial Arts are useless... That’s NOT what I’m saying. I DID say that there are better ways of doing things, especially fighting, if that’s your intention. I’m being objective and realistic here, not dwelling in Chinese mysticism.

Originally posted by chris davis 200
man o man - WuShu is a gymnastic sport! here we go - Great Sage. huh

Well, as far as I’m aware of, In China, almost all kung-fu is now known as WuShu... Sanshou just happens to be a component of the term. Most people don’t readily use the term “kung-fu” anymore, because it’s misleading. It really has nothing to do with the idea of martial arts, but was coined by Americans in the early 70’s, I believe...

Originally posted by chris davis 200
I know someone is a master when they have been in Many many DOCUMENTED real fights! Getting in the ring proves that you can fight to the rules of the organiser. Many people do not NEED to prove themselves.

Documented real fights are not as real as they claim... The fact that they need to be documented, just proves it. While ring fighters are sport combatives, I would rather put my money on say Cung Le, than a Tai Chi master who’s beaten a few other kung-fu guys in matches. There’s a difference in the level of training, athleticism and mentality—all in favor of the guy who fights occassionally.

Then there’s your idea that they’re “unknown” to most... This idea falls into the whole Chinese kung-fu mysticism category. If he’s unknown, how do you know he’s good? Again, I’m not that gullible.

Originally posted by chris davis 200
Many masters do not say that they are great or proffess to be something, they are humble people with no AGENDA! why would they want to PROVE their art to a bunch of neanderthals shouting for blood - Especially when they have fought for real many times?

Well, Chris.. Here’s where I think you’re wrong. I’ve been in the martial arts business for some time. I still teach FOR FREE at least once or twice a week. I know for a fact, that business is for profit first and foremost. There doesn’t need to be an agenda. The point of a business is to make profit.

Originally posted by chris davis 200
these people do not live in the US generally - they are not interested in making a quick buck - That is for the likes of Mc dojo's and - well quite obviously - you!

Chris, I thought you had some credibility, but now I think you’re just acting on impulse... I suppose you know and understand the demeanor of ALL kung-fu masters. I suppose you travel to China each year and train with a bunch of old masters hiding in caves... Not true, buddy. According to my brother, who has been to China on numerous occassions, one can find kung-fu instruction signs everywhere, from fishing ports to hotel lobbys. In fact, it’s even offered with meals!

Also, during this time, the Yip brothers (Yip Mann’s sons) have decided to teach in the United States... All this after their public scrutiny of Bruce Lee about teaching “Whites.” So much for the integrity of Chinese kung-fu. Although, at one time I’m sure there was some integrity, but today it’s about making money off of the foreigners.

Originally posted by chris davis 200
You are really off the mark with this one - The schools i train at make vertually NO profit - If the point was to make money then surely the standard would not be there - the focus would be money!!

Standards have eveything to do with making money, especially if you’re business oriented. The Gracies marketed their art, based on a standard that still retains to this day. That’s how you keep your integrity intact while profitting. If your school sucked, then eventually people would catch on... Get my drift.

Originally posted by chris davis 200
Again missing the point - Kung fu masters are not saying their techniques are superior - YOU are saying they are inferior! there is a major difference!

If they were saying - WE ARE THE BEST - then fine - but i have never met a single internal arts master that has said this - and i doubt you have either!

And I think you’ve missed the point entirely... I said there are better ways of training for fighting. It’s not a matter of opinion, but a fact of life thåt has proven itself over and over again.