Chin-na

[Szczepankiewicz]

Once again we digress from the topic at hand... Where's the moderator in this forum to keep us on track??

5-1 The people, all six of us who matter have voted on the subject, say that chin-na is useful.

[chris davis 200]

Well, Chris.. Here’s where I think you’re wrong. I’ve been in the martial arts business for some time. I still teach FOR FREE at least once or twice a week. I know for a fact, that business is for profit first and foremost. There doesn’t need to be an agenda. The point of a business is to make profit.

I have trained with many people - they have been either in the Martial arts Business or martial artists.

there has been a distinct difference.

It really isnt ALL about profits - i do know that many masters travel the world and the fee's that the take from practitioners may seem fairly high - but when you concider that they have to travel away from their family and other businesses etc. the small amount that many get at the end of it - is just fair game.

i still wouldnt call this a business.

I suppose you know and understand the demeanor of ALL kung-fu masters. I suppose you travel to China each year and train with a bunch of old masters hiding in caves... Not true, buddy.

I have not travelled to China and Japan to train but like you i know many people that do go over to China on a very regular basis. I do not think that man y masters are hiding in caves etc. Of course there are professional schools and some masters market their art alot. There are many kick boxing and Thai boxing schools around the place too - as with everything there are some that choose to market the things they know.

But

there ARE also those that do not have the motivation of Money in teaching their arts - you will find that many internal Arts Masters run clinics and helth centers. The teaching of martial arts is a passion for these people - not a business.

Standards have eveything to do with making money, especially if you’re business oriented. The Gracies marketed their art, based on a standard that still retains to this day. That’s how you keep your integrity intact while profitting. If your school sucked, then eventually people would catch on... Get my drift.

I understand what you are saying here and agree - but you have to admitt surely that there is a multitude of franchised 'money making' dojo's around the world that teach nothing but crap - this is my point - maybe the head of those schools was ok - but he chose to make money - not good students - end result - blinded followers with empty pockets!

And I think you’ve missed the point entirely... I said there are better ways of training for fighting. It’s not a matter of opinion, but a fact of life thåt has proven itself over and over again.

I would say that i havnt missed the point - there may be better ways of obtaining fighting ability quickly - but better ways of fighting - this is down to the individual.

I have respect for your opinions Sage, dont get me wrong - But if we all agreed then life wouldnt be quite as interesting would it.



Cheers
Chris

[ryanhall]

Where's the moderator in this forum to keep us on track??

He's hiding in a cave.

BTW, I'm looking into your friend's problem. I'll shoot you an e-mail when I get things straightened out.

Huey,

what about shuai chiao? chinese wrestling. it is a traditional chinese martial art that is all about throwing. it is also the basic fundamentals that influenced the judo and bjj of today. it resembles judo in that it requires one opponent to try and throw the other. not many strikes but lots of throws.

Are you suggesting that Judo was influcenced by Chinese wrestling? It was based off of Japanese Ju-Jitsu, and was pretty much devoid of Chinese influence. In fact, the throws-only competition that you mention describes only modern Judo. Pre-WW II Judo was much more combative, and it contained a number of strikes and blows to go with its throwing and ground work.

Everybody else,
I know I've participated in the internal martial arts debates before, as have just about all of you. I realize that there aren't often topics that come up that are ripe for debate, but I don't really think this is going anywhere. Nobody is going to convince anyone of anything other than that they should agree to disagree. However, if I may note:

A tough fighter is a tough fighter, no matter where he/she comes from. If they train hard and often, they will gain some form of prowess. I sincerely doubt that a Chinese grand master could step up and beat the best ring fighters in the world. Maybe he can't beat everyone he fights in real life. The same goes for any boxer, Thai fighter, Judo player, etc. However, that doesn't mean that he's not skilled in his own right. I don't make excuses for failures of traditional martial arts masters the same way that I don't foolishly believe that the title 'BJJ player' or 'boxer' automatically makes you a badass. However, I don't discount the fact that there are very effective fighters in most disciplines that remain relatively unknown.

[jules]

About Chinese martial arts "masters" and them not joining competitions.. It was tradition in china to have competitions all the time throughout history. Heck if you read Ip Man's autobiography he describes many rooftop challenges and competitions.

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by chris davis 200
I would say that i havnt missed the point - there may be better ways of obtaining fighting ability quickly - but better ways of fighting - this is down to the individual.

I can live with that.

Originally posted by chris davis 200
I have respect for your opinions Sage, dont get me wrong - But if we all agreed then life wouldnt be quite as interesting would it.

As do I yours, Chris... Thanks for the debate.. You see, Spanky... Another happy ending.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Heck fellas, now I'm all warm and fuzzy on the inside.

[huey]

from ryan hall

Are you suggesting that Judo was influcenced by Chinese wrestling? It was based off of Japanese Ju-Jitsu, and was pretty much devoid of Chinese influence. In fact, the throws-only competition that you mention describes only modern Judo. Pre-WW II Judo was much more combative, and it contained a number of strikes and blows to go with its throwing and ground work.

from

http://www.koreanhapkido.com/shuaichi.htm

In the Ch'in Dynasty the art was also known as "Hsian Pu." The Chinese characters pronounced "Hsian Pu" are the same characters the Japanese used to denote "sumo," which is traditional Japanese wrestling. It has also been proven that Judo, although invented by the Japanese, actually was influenced very much by the Chinese martial artist Ch'en Yuan-pin. During the Ming Dynasty Ch'en fled China to Japan and later taught there at a temple in Tokyo. The Japanese honor Ch'en Yuanpin with a monument citing his contributions to the teaching of the martial arts.

yes i am suggesting just that.

what about shuai chiao? chinese wrestling. it is a traditional chinese martial art that is all about throwing. it is also the basic fundamentals that influenced the judo and bjj of today. it resembles judo in that it requires one opponent to try and throw the other. not many strikes but lots of throws.

what i meant when i wrote this was that shuai chiao, as of today, doesn't teach many strikes, not pre wwII judo. and i was referring to the judo of today in throwing to win, not pre wwII judo. sorry for any misunderstanding.

[huey]

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1962/sep62/historyofjudo/historyofjudo.html

The term Jujutsu, can be traced back as far as the Seventeenth Century. Closely associated with this term is the name, Ch'en Yuan-pin, pronounced in Japanese as "Chin Gempin." To this man is ascribed the introduction of Jujutsu into Japan.

i am still suggesting it.

Jujutsu started when the naturalized Japanese Chin Gempin from Ming (China) taught it to his students in Edo during the Shoho period. Fukuno Hichiroemon, Miura Yojiemon and Isogai Jirozaemon learned it from him and studied the principles with him

There are, to be sure, many theories that support the invention or introduction of Jujutsu. However, the thesis relating to Ch'en Yuan-pin is substantiated by documents, scholarly works, and reference books, eg. dictionaries, and encyclopediae

Inasmuch as Jujutsu, and therefore Judo, was of Chinese origin, credit must be given to the Japanese for adapting, revising, systematizing, and spreading the art and sport of Judo so that it has become a common household word throughout the entire world.

nope not suggesting it... i'm saying it. Someone from china, as i wrote before, influenced jujutsu and yes even judo. now stick to the topic of CHIN NA, man.

[Tom Yum]

Actually, the Chinese grappling did influence jujitsu, but judo was Jigoro Kano's invention based off of jujitsu. So judo was indeirectly influenced by Chinese grappling.

[huey]

that's all i said. i didn't say that they ( the chinese) came up with it or brought it to japan just simply influenced it whether directly or not.
thanks for at least someone understanding me.

[jubaji]

Re: Regarding Chin-Na

Originally posted by Declan

Another reason Chinese martial arts don't emphasise ground fighting is that if you have trained your stance to be firm, your waist to be supple, your blocks to be effective and your strikes to be powerful, your opponent should go down without taking you with him.

People who say that fights always end up on the ground don't know how to hit and don't know how to stand so they have to rely on grappling.

more 'theory' fighting?

[jubaji]

Re: Re: Standing

Originally posted by Great Sage



I also tend to avoid throwing techniques... I don’t care what anyone says, there’s no truth in a 100 lb person throwing a 300 lb person.

"no" truth? you've overstated your point

[grubbogoppoly]

I am 135 and have thrown a 250 lb man(who was also shorter than me) like it was nothing.

[Thai Bri]

Yep. Theres a lot to be said for compliant training partners. They are really good for the ego.

[grubbogoppoly]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
Yep. Theres a lot to be said for compliant training partners. They are really good for the ego.

Thai. .Really, do you have anything of value to say? I mean come on. Anything anyone has ever done is compliant according to you. Just because your school sucks doesn't mean ours do