Tai Chi,good self-defense art or not?

[Tom Yum]

I dont doubt the effectiveness of the filipino MAs.It would pay to remain objective though.If someone told me Tong long was deadly 5 years ago i would have laughed(Such a funny name how can it b deadly?)

Good one. Also like the early UFCs; people sized up Royce Gracie and laughed (what is this lanky looking guy doing against a ripped kickboxer and buff wrestler) until the other guy tapped.

[m.artist]

and even my kungfu instructor said that in HongKong, a group of Old Chinese KungFu Masters (taichi) there see cable television with Bruce Lee Movies in a restaurant, they often laugh the way Bruce Lee's kicks and flying kicks, they said "try kick me that way" they did not believe the way Bruce Lee.... it simply means that Bruce Lee's Movie art is Jeet Kune Do and his Actual fight art is WingChun......

sure..that is true. they may have laughed, but when bruce was challenged by those so called "masters" he made them look plain silly. u may not want to admit it. but it's the truth. how can a style with a fixed pattern of doing things, take out someone who's art teaches u to adapt to every aspect of life? u can't. simple as that. it's impossible. i do not and will not every doubt that bruce lee made those people look stupid.

[sherwinc]

sure..that is true. they may have laughed, but when bruce was challenged by those so called "masters" he made them look plain silly. u may not want to admit it. but it's the truth. how can a style with a fixed pattern of doing things, take out someone who's art teaches u to adapt to every aspect of life? u can't. simple as that. it's impossible. i do not and will not every doubt that bruce lee made those people look stupid.

and maybe this is the reason why i combined all Kungfu that i reached learn, cause i dont want to learn a single style of kungfu but to absorb what is usefull in any of the kungfu and reject what is useless..... whether kungfu classified as long, short, hard, soft, hardsoft, external, internal, scientific, taoist based, shaolin based...... all of them i absorb what is usefull and reject what is useless....... defending upon the distance of my opponent i interchange from one kungfu to another just to fit the fighting situation.... all solid kungfu

note:
if jet kune do is a combination of all kungfu and non-kungfu....

then....

my own kuksot is a combination of all solid kungfu's to fit the all fighting situations...(including some kungfu weapons)

[sherwinc]

I am lucky enough to be training with an amazing tai chi teacher Shifu Shi Yan Jian a shaolin monk taought by the legendary Shifu Shi Tang jian li since birth.

Basically I was told this by Shifu (consequently not yan jian but Yan zi who teaches me external fighting and internal ro quan) generally there are 5 main styles of tai chi the oldest being Chen style, then Yang, Wu, Sun i forgot the other doh!
Anyway although all can help u focus chi and have many health benefits the only 1 that can be used for fighting is Chen style which is also the oldest.

Tai chi translates literally as ultimate fist and the theory goes is if u truly understand tai chi, u r unbeatable. Generally there are only a handful of people in the world that can actually use taichi to fight and i mean a handful. It doesnt matter if the guy is 9th dan, sash or whatever if either he/she understands it or he/she doesnt. The reason i mentioned that Shifu Shi Yan Zi told me this was the fact that to u external fighters out there ie. muay thai, karate u may better respect Yan Zi's point of view rather than Yan Jian's as Yan Zi is the former unbeaten world san shou champion kinown as "mighty steel leg", even he at his caliber (considered by many to be 1 of the greatest fighters in the world) considers tai chi in its most advanced form as being the most deadly martial art there is.

The reason there r so few that can actually effectively use it to fight is because it takes so long to master shifu yan jian says the quickest any1 has ever learnt taichi properly was 25yrs and that was a long time ago.

basically tai chi can be used as an ultimate fist as it were but there r so few who can do this that u might as well consider that in general no it cant be used.

absolutely true..... i can personally testify it for 10 years my practicing in Hik Style Tai Chi Chuan (with a mix of Tan Style, Chua Style, Kiaw Style and Yang Style of Tai Chi Chuans)

pushing hands is the only key like Vowels in an alphabet

and that Tai Chi Forms is like a Consonant in an alphabet.....

If i met karate i use:
tai chi chuan

if i met boxing i use:
wingchun, chi dian bun

if someday i met muay thai i use:
1. tai chi defense to muay thai's leg attack
2. wing chun defense to muay thai's fist attack
3. chi dian bun and some ngo cho kun as my offensive attack to muay thai
4. and using my angka kungfu as a follow-up offensive attack to muay thai

[MuayThaiFighter]

absolutely true..... i can personally testify it for 10 years my practicing in Hik Style Tai Chi Chuan (with a mix of Tan Style, Chua Style, Kiaw Style and Yang Style of Tai Chi Chuans)

pushing hands is the only key like Vowels in an alphabet

and that Tai Chi Forms is like a Consonant in an alphabet.....

If i met karate i use:
tai chi chuan

if i met boxing i use:
wingchun, chi dian bun

if someday i met muay thai i use:
1. tai chi defense to muay thai's leg attack
2. wing chun defense to muay thai's fist attack
3. chi dian bun and some ngo cho kun as my offensive attack to muay thai
4. and using my angka kungfu as a follow-up offensive attack to muay thai

if i met boxing i use:
wingchun, chi dian bun

I would have to feel sorry for you then,because Wing chung would not work against boxing.No Wing chung person would be able to take out guys like Hollyfield,Lewis or Mike Tyson.

if someday i met muay thai i use:
1. tai chi defense to muay thai's leg attack
2. wing chun defense to muay thai's fist attack
3. chi dian bun and some ngo cho kun as my offensive attack to muay thai
4. and using my angka kungfu as a follow-up offensive attack to muay thai

Oh my God you have got to be kidding.I really ,really feel sorry for you then. Tai Chi,Wing chung and Kung Fu would have no chance against a Muay Thai fighter.

I can't believe you could say shit like that,next you're going to say Tai Chi,Wing Chun and Kung Fu would win against any UFC or Pride fighter.If you think this then I really got to laugh and feel very sorry for you.

I would hate to see what would happen between your styles and Muay Thai, I can guarantee you'd lose and end up dead or at least beaten up badly. I feel real sorry for you if you honestly believe any of the shit you just wrote.

Get off the crack it is affecting your brain or could it be you have just got punched too many times in head? I bet it is a combination of both.

[shuyun]

taichi is so subtle it can be integrated into any technique.

you don't even have to be obvious about the taichi.

[Mulan]

Yes it is!

To not repeat anything already said, I will instead post some links that y'all may or may not have seen regarding the martial aspect of Tai Chi Chuan:

Basic Combat Applications of Tai Chi Chuan
Combat Principles and Skills of Tai Chi Chuan
(somewhat biased but still relevant) Questions & Answers About Tai Chi Chuan as a Martial Art

[yentao]

if i met boxing i use:
wingchun, chi dian bun

I would have to feel sorry for you then,because Wing chung would not work against boxing.No Wing chung person would be able to take out guys like Hollyfield,Lewis or Mike Tyson.

if someday i met muay thai i use:
1. tai chi defense to muay thai's leg attack
2. wing chun defense to muay thai's fist attack
3. chi dian bun and some ngo cho kun as my offensive attack to muay thai
4. and using my angka kungfu as a follow-up offensive attack to muay thai

Oh my God you have got to be kidding.I really ,really feel sorry for you then. Tai Chi,Wing chung and Kung Fu would have no chance against a Muay Thai fighter.

I can't believe you could say shit like that,next you're going to say Tai Chi,Wing Chun and Kung Fu would win against any UFC or Pride fighter.If you think this then I really got to laugh and feel very sorry for you.

I would hate to see what would happen between your styles and Muay Thai, I can guarantee you'd lose and end up dead or at least beaten up badly. I feel real sorry for you if you honestly believe any of the shit you just wrote.

Get off the crack it is affecting your brain or could it be you have just got punched too many times in head? I bet it is a combination of both.

Well everybody is confident from his or her style. There is no such art that is undefeatable. I've seen a muay thai and tae kwon do fight in a mma event. The muay thai fighter has his advantage but when he evade a kick by lowering his dead he did not notice the follow up so he ended up having a kick in a jaw. So you really can't tell which is the better style.

[shuyun]

arrogance

in another forum i belong to no one is arrogant enough to declare that his art is the best or that another is useless.

as i said tai chi is subtle. if all you know about tai chi is the superslow movements done by old folks in the park then your arrogance is founded on insufficient data. you don't even have to see a single tai chi form and still be using it. use the mechanics of the single whip for example can be used to execute a single hand form "tai otoshi". Any martial art can then achieve an internal dimension.

the name of the art itself means "the ultimate martial art" it was not meant to be a hanky panky type of art that's only supposed to make you feel good.

once you are totally aware of your body's internal workings any art you practice will improve because of it. you'll be more stable and able to generate more power for anything and that is no longer done in bullet time.

a tai chi practicioner may just ask you to put your money where your mouth is just to prove a point, but then again with all that peacefullness and zen going on they wouldn't bother. "Combat taichi" (if there was ever another variety) is still very much alive so keep your eyes peeled.

[jubaji]

a tai chi practicioner may just ask you to put your money where your mouth is just to prove a point, but then again with all that peacefullness and zen going on they wouldn't bother.

???
I think you've gotten your cultures crossed.
???

[Mulan]

There's so many fun translations of "Tai Chi Chuan" ... Ultimate Martial Art, Cosmic Kung Fu, Grand Ultimate Fist, the list goes on.

Combined with Chi Kung, it teaches you to cultivate your internal energy and perceive cosmic energy. Theoretically speaking, this then allows you to direct energy throughout your body to power your attacks, and also to pick up on your opponent's energy (which is what Push Hands training is about), anticipate their movements, flow with them, and have them backfire on your opponent. Once/if you get the hang of all that, you could become something akin to an unconquerable force of nature. Tai Chi Chuan was birthed from Taoism... from philosophies like:

*~"Yield and overcome; Bend and be straight; Empty and be full; Wear out and be new" (Tao Te Ching, 22)
*~"The softest thing in the universe overcomes the hardest thing in the universe. That without substance can enter where there is no room" (TTC, 43)
*~"Under heaven nothing is more soft and yielding than water. Yet for attacking the solid and strong, nothing is better; It has no equal. The weak can overcome the strong; The supple can overcome the stiff. Under heaven everyone knows this, yet no one puts it into practice" (TTC, 78)

Well, Tai Chi Chuan supposedly "puts it into practice." But Zen Buddhism is similar to this... at least in mindset and the paradoxical reasoning.

[sherwinc]

Combined with Chi Kung, it teaches you to cultivate your internal energy and perceive cosmic energy. Theoretically speaking, this then allows you to direct energy throughout your body to power your attacks, and also to pick up on your opponent's energy (which is what Push Hands training is about), anticipate their movements, flow with them, and have them backfire on your opponent. Once/if you get the hang of all that, you could become something akin to an unconquerable force of nature.

When i first practice Hik Style Tai Chi Chuan, i know few of its applications particularly its push hands, i can neutralize my kungfu classmates power when we practice push hands, but when in actual sparring, i can't apply the applications and concepts of pushing hands...... after years of practicing push hands, still i dont know how to use it in actual combat...... but when i start learning the Chi Sau of Wing Chun KungFu, and mastered it even blindfolded two partner chi sau, i can apply it in sparring using chi sau of wing chun....... from then on, by the time i start practicing again Pushing Hands of Tai Chi, then i can now apply it in combat......

Note:
for me, it is easy to learn on how to Tai Chi Pushing Hands if you first practice and mastered the Chi Sau of Wing Chun......

Comparison:
Tai Chi Pushing Hands - its purpose is to listen, understand, yeild then neutralize the opponents power into emptiness......

Wing Chun's Sticking Hands - its purpose is to detect the opponents direction of force since wingchun's eyes is blind and they rely on the sensitivity of their bridge forearm (like a vessel/ship autopilot manuever), he who comes - meet, he who withdraws - follow, loosing of a hand contact - rush-in.

Chi Dian Bun's Walking Hands - continuous walking of the hands(offense/defense) unto the opponents arms/fist/elbows while the fist is near unto the target and the motion of hands is diagonal and circle.... thus, what you see is not (illusion technique). Seven Elements as the Advance Form.

Ngo Cho Kun Kung Fu Ngo Ki (arm hitting exercise) - iron forearm, smashing of forearm against opponents forearm (even fist to fist collision) like a Robot Bulldozer, from the Fist of the Five Ancestors.

Ang Ka Kung Fu's Iron Skin - ability of the body to accept a full attacking force of the opponent using its Iron Skin or Golden Bell Cover..... transferring of power to a selected points of the Ang Ka's body to put chi (Wai Dan form of Chi Practice) to make it invincible.....

[sherwinc]

Good one. Also like the early UFCs; people sized up Royce Gracie and laughed (what is this lanky looking guy doing against a ripped kickboxer and buff wrestler) until the other guy tapped.

you know, look at the icon, this type of punch is really extremely easy to defend, this type of punch will bring you into great depth of jeopardy.... look at the icon.... especially if that punch is straight from elbow up to fist....

look at that yellow fist icon on the top of the message.... do you have that kind of punch?????

[shuyun]

you know, look at the icon, this type of punch is really extremely easy to defend, this type of punch will bring you into great depth of jeopardy.... look at the icon.... especially if that punch is straight from elbow up to fist....

look at that yellow fist icon on the top of the message.... do you have that kind of punch?????

no i don't i prefer the sun character fist or the vertical fist.

but then again that's only the end of the arm to say it's easy to defend is presumtptous. a tight hook punch from the likes of Manny Pacquiao comes from that orientation and i don't think Barrera would say that it's easy to defend agaisnt?

Ever been hit by a left hooK? in very close quarters where you are too clese to read your opponent's shoulders?

a vertical heel palm has that orientation only with the palm open. how does that make it more effective? or a front kick for that matter? In the FMA the actual technique does not matter what they train agaisnt is angles of attack. they will know how to defend from angle not from technique. A punch, a kick a bash, a slash is considered one thing -- an attack. if it comes from the same direction it is defended the same way.

[shuyun]

zen and culture

???
I think you've gotten your cultures crossed.
???

i so not mean zen in the buddhist sense but rather the state of mind which accepts all things and does nothing out of presumption or premeditation. its what musashi would call no thought no conception or bruce lees' be like water. when you can be in that state how can you think of violence for self aggrandizement?

i'm using zen as a label to refer to the thought less and formless thought. the same state of mind that a video game player uses when he is "one with the controller". (sorry to sound cheesy) but point taken thanks