Tai Chi,good self-defense art or not?

[jubaji]

Like I said, I dunno. I've just heard a heap of crap about him on internet joints.

[Thai Bri]

Doesn't he have a book out about "Dim Mak"?

If so his credibility is rather low in my most humble opinion.

[tai-gip]

chris i would suggest you didnt read mine here is what you said

The body mechanics are DIFFERENT, the form of training is DIFFERENT, the style of fighting is DIFFERENT, the internal aspects are DIFFERENT. Just doing karate like your doing Tai chi will NOT make them the same.


there are differances in forms of tai-chi ..is the internal focus different ?????

dont limit what your learning into boxes everything fits everywhere..

aside from the beneficial health aspects tai-chi is about focus and flowing energy.... do you think this would be beneficial to other styles ???

once again if you dont accept its the thought and focus behind the movement you are really learning you must think one tai-chi is better than the others because of the form moves ???

many styles such as karate and tkd dont get into the mental/philiosophical side of the art until after black belt because they focus on the movement not the thought behind it

once they do though the katas may seem more solid and rigid but they flow with the same energy as tai-chi just a different physical move !! perhaps not as internaly beneficial though

[krys]

Actually he leaves in Wales now....
I don't think he would mind if somebody would go to one of his workshop test his credibility.....

I've seen peoples talking crap about him... always far away....

[jubaji]

Why? Does he have an odor problem?

[iliqchuan]

tai-chi and internal arts

Tai-Chi is a very complex system. Obviously with any art the level of the teacher is the greatest factor. However, having studied internal arts for some time now, the emphasis of the training from style to style does create inconsistencies in skill. For instance almost all Yang (the most popular Tai-Chi style) practitioners I have encountered emphasize form, and loose relaxed energy, in push hands they emphasize yeilding. So they are very relaxed but many times too much, they often lack power and effective defense. Chen practitioners emphasize coordination and power and lots and lots of push hands, so some may use muscular strength but they hit hard, and have powerful legs. But despite this being common among studentsa of this style it still comes down to the practitioner and the quality of their instruction. For instance some of my Kung fu brothers have trained with William C.C. Chen (student of Chen Man Ching) and say his Yang teaching is great. I have also met to amazing Chen masters Grand Master Chen Xiao Wong and Master Ren Guangyi from the Chen village. Obviously I didn't get to touch hands with them, but their power and awareness was very impressive, and their reputations are second to none in the world of Tai Chi. So I feel quite sure that though most practice Tai Chi for health, its roots are martial and thus those with genuine skill can fight.
I would also go on to say that there is a misconception that Tai Chi is a soft art. There is no such thing. Tai Chi is a balance of Yin and Yang hardness and softness. Tai Chi is also not exclusive to techniques from forms. Any technique performed with the balance of Yin and Yang and natural movement of the body is a manifeststation of Tai Chi concepts, whether chinna or a kick to the face. Hence the many styles of Tai Chi and Taoist internal arts.
About 5 years ago I was competing heavily in full contact, doing exclusively external art when on the recommendation of a freind I went to a "Tai Chi" class at the Chuang Yen buddhist monastery. Here I met Sifu Sam Chin. He defeated me quite effortlessly and though I didn't realize it yet inspired me to eventually become his student. Since I have followed him around the world studying from him, his is, I believe one of the martial artists in the world. He teaches here in NY at local temples and the cultural center in China town. He is the "real deal" in internal martial arts. Check out iliqchuan.org for more about him and his family's style. I am speaking only from my experience I am sure there is still a great deal I haven't seen about these arts. However I am quite sure that internal kung fu is for fighting, though quite rare, there are some very competent teachers and very dangerous fighters, this I have seen first hand.

[chris davis 200]

Good post

Welcome to the boards - It is good to have another internal arts brother here.

[huey]

my teacher went to china about ten years ago and learned the yang style tai chi set (sorry but i don't know if there is more than one set or the masters name) and after training they would go to local restaraunts to eat and listen to stories from the 75 year old man. one of the stories he told was from five years back (15 years ago present time). it involved a much younger man that came to challenge this master. the master told him that he would only fight him if he signed a waiver taking away all responsibility from the outcome. the younger man asked why he should do this and the reply was you're much younger than me so i won't waste my time fighting you i'll just kill you.

the practitioners that have done tai chi for decades are not to be trifled with even if you think they're no problem.
they have spent that time getting in tune with muscles and positions in which energy can be transferred with ease and focus that will do a whole world of harm if they choose.
i have not done a lot of training i tai chi but have talked with many cross trainers that are black belt brothers in the system i train in that say it is very dangerous, and if you knew the people i talked to that says a lot. some of these guys had to get into fights in bars to get there black belts, that was how it was done back then. real old school bad asses that would wipe the floor with people when they had to.

the balance that tai chi brings is of both the external and internal martial arts because the muscles you are working while developing the internal are the same ones that external martial artists are trying to develop without influencing the internal. they may not be training them in the same way but they are training them nonetheless. external arts bring too much yang and not enough yin. the system i am in is an external to internal art so in the begining all yang and eventually balanced yin.
all arts practice with yang whether they believe it or not, it is the absence of developing yin that will cause them to eventually stagnate.
my opinion but shared by others.

[chris davis 200]

Good post.

a teacher of mine said that one of his teachers was walking through the streets of paris with his old master one night when they came across a man starting on a woman - really agressivley beating her.

The teacher walked up to the guy and politley said please stop doing that. The guy turned on him and the old master dropped him unconcious and bearly breathing onto the concrete. They attended to the woman, called an ambulance for them both and then left about 15 minutes later. The guy was still out.

whether this is true or not, the fact is that the old internal masters have something to them - they have power and fighting skill. After 50 years of martial arts practice you must have Something!

cheers
Chris

[Thai Bri]

Despite my usual humour, I do try to have an open mind. But we're drifting back into tall tales here. And Chris, your last sentence does the arguments in favour of internal arts more harm than good.

[chris davis 200]

We are drifting back into stories arnt we!!!

sorry about that master Bri!!

dont quite know how i harmed the reputaion of internal arts saying that guys that practice martial arts for fifty years have something about them, but hey!!

anyway i think we have pretty much done the whole - 'do they work....' thing and now i think we have proved that - It all depends..... on alot of things.

cheers
chris

[Thai Bri]

No offence emant, master Chris.

But lets follow the logic of a guy who practices the martial art of "Little Toe Do" for fifty years. And art where the only technique is to ram the little toe into the opponents elbow. What will he end up with?

I know its a silly example, but thats to only emphasise the point that doing something for fifty years doesn't mean that you were doing something that will help. It has no influence on whether or not your art is actually effective.

[chris davis 200]

good point.

[Thai Bri]

Yaeh, and well made too, dontcha think?

Anyway, you been to Geoff Thompsons forum yet?

[chris davis 200]

nope not yet - but will head over there now!

On another note - i will probably be posting a vid clip of ME demoing a simple tai chi movement, its normal class application and its realistic application.

Dont know yet but may do.