Tai Chi,good self-defense art or not?

[treelizard]

Agreed!!

If only you would write in this amazing, eloquent prose more often!!!

I'm even gonna quote the whole thing.

That's just the problem. Of course there are vulnerable areas on the body (ALL of the areas of the body are vulnerable in a way) and if it can be built it can be broke. Of course taijiquan is a legitimate MA. Of course if you do certain things it will be highly-less-than-beneficial to whomever you are doing it to. Etc, etc, etc. But to take things to such silly extremes as to propose that someone who studies taijiquan is far too deadly to ever demonstrate their awesome power without causing massive death and destruction is detrimental to all TMA. The fantasies of teenage boys superimposed on an actual art tend to smear that art. Taijiquan masters may have fast hands, but so do pro boxers, so do pro piano players for that matter! No need to sink to dragonball foolishness. Fajing can generate a lot of power, but does not spell certain death for its unsuspecting victim. I've been hit by taijiquan masters, and football players, and wrestlers, and boxers, and cars, etc. It all hurts, but its not video game fantasy where people fly through the air 100 yards (and you can see the wire on their back). I've been in scraps with folks who were very strong taijiquan practitioners (with, not against), and when all was said and done no one was dead or dangling from the tops of tall trees. I've sparred with these same folks and while very impressed, no more impressed than by other well trained fighters I've sparred with. Taijiquan is great, but its not magic and anyone who tries to sell it as such is doing a disservice to real people who train a real art in real life, not in comic-book fantasy land. Pride comes sneaking in and people feel like they just have to be the expert and this leads to skeptical responses which isolate that person more and more until he feels the need to justify his position by going to ever greater extremes to show the true depth of his knowledge that the unbelievers cannot know! This, predictably, brings more skeptical responses and the cycle continues going to ever more ridiculous extremes.

[Sagacious Lu]

Here's a good understanding on what Fa Jing is by the real experts...http://www.dynamicbalancingtaichi.co.uk/Fa%20jing.htm After reading this, its seems like complete bull.

Fajin (fajing?) is real, it's just very rare. I'm not so sure about that web site though, this quote is bullshit:

Dim-mak and chin na do not really work without fa jing.

Forget the dim-mak part, I've spent a bit of time working on chin na even though I've never even seen a fajin strike in person; you definately DO NOT need to be able to launch fajin strikes to employ a joint lock

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Its very rare? Who and where do you get the best instruction from...Pei Mei? But seriously, how do you learn it and how long does it usually take?

[Mephariel]

Real life modern fighting as apposed to fake historical fighting? People didn’t kill people in the 1700s and 1800s? You lost me on that one, dude.

By modern day fighting, I mean fighting in the ring and that kind of style. Ring fights today are very boxing oriented in terms of movement and footwork.

[Sagacious Lu]

But seriously, how do you learn it and how long does it usually take?

I don't know, but I'm sure Boar could give you your answer if he isn't too pissed at you to take your questions seriously

[Drunken Munky]

Fajin (fajing?) is real, it's just very rare. I'm not so sure about that web site though, this quote is bullshit:

Jing, in Chinese means semen, and is a metaphor for essence.

Jin, means somthing along the lines of internal power, or energy (in the moving sense).

Check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jing_%28TCM%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nei_Jin

[kingoftheforest]

I don't know

I am still trying to figure out how rare turned in to mythical

You don't tell people who juggle swords they have mythical powers do you? I bet they're rare though. I'm sure you could learn to juggle swords if you trained enough.

Would you then be a mythical sword juggler???? Or just a rare person who can juggle swords????

[knifethrower]

By modern day fighting, I mean fighting in the ring and that kind of style. Ring fights today are very boxing oriented in terms of movement and footwork.

I'm still lost but, work with me. Are you talking about only ring fights or warfare or both. Are you talking about only movement and foot work? Are you saying that we move better now that we did then?

Dim Mak was a real technique. There is nothing mystical about it either. You are simply focusing your entire energy of your body to strike at pressure points to stop your opponent. In real life modern fighting however, dim mak is not practical because in a real fight your opponent is not going to stand there and watch you channel your internal energy and let you strike them.

Do you have to wait and channel your energy before using this dim mak. Do you think they (people way back then) sat around and waited for this strike to happen? Was this because they didn’t have the foot work of a good boxer? Come on, dude

[Mephariel]

I'm still lost but, work with me. Are you talking about only ring fights or warfare or both. Are you talking about only movement and foot work? Are you saying that we move better now that we did then?



Do you have to wait and channel your energy before using this dim mak. Do you think they (people way back then) sat around and waited for this strike to happen? Was this because they didn’t have the foot work of a good boxer? Come on, dude

I am not talking about warfare. I am talking about the modern stretagies of fighting like in modern ring matches. Most modern fights are very boxing oriented in terms of footwork and speed. They favor quick attacks to gain points and sometimes have protection and such. They don't use a lot of solid stance and fight with grounded feets. If you read about how some of the dim mak master fights in documents and such, they are usually opportunists. They wait until you get close and when you strike with a hard attack, they reteliate with a quick jab to your pressure points as a counter. This is far more effective against TMA when a fighter is more grounded in their footwork as opposed to modern fighters that adopted the more mobile footwork. Of course, this isn't absolute.

[Koma1]

If you read about how some of the dim mak master fights in documents and such, they are usually opportunists. They wait until you get close and when you strike with a hard attack, they reteliate with a quick jab to your pressure points as a counter. This is far more effective against TMA when a fighter is more grounded in their footwork as opposed to modern fighters that adopted the more mobile footwork. Of course, this isn't absolute.

There are Dim-Mak Master fights that have been documented?

This is a rough draft of my reply to Brewer...

Remember this post Mike Brewer ran from and closed the thread in New fight stories?

IF and WHEN you stop deriding and chiding my posts...and actually step back realize you ain't right every time you post I'll be happy to explain the problems I saw in your "After action report" However I WONT have time to do THAT properly until AFTER the seminar. THEN I'd LOVE to take every post you made on the subject and discuss each and every one as though it WAS an after action report...No BS...no attitude...and NO TROLLS...You agree to a PROFESSIONAL discussion of your "After Action Report" As though you turned it in for critique instead of praise and I'd be more than happy to "contribute" As well as explain EXACTLY why I busted your balls so hard for your posts about it in the first place...but I wont be trapped into answering 50 thousand trolls so when I can't answer all of them you can claim some kind of victory.

Deal? or can I just expect Jubaji to troll and you to attack me again? Or are you Man and Moderator enough to step up and keep the trolls out of the thread and honestly discuss your "report."

You are after all a SUPER Moderator and supposed EXPERT and many kids look up to you on here as a role model. So YOUR examples will be followed...you really don't wanna save me the trouble and remove the testosterone flavored BS from your post yourself? We BOTH know most of that post was a slam at ME and your USING MMA on the job ...but ya didn't and you didn't even use clear judgment of your options either...at least the way you told it. I didn't hit you any harder than anyone else who read that as an after action report, of a supposed Martial arts forum Moderator and MMA trainer and Vunak Student...it read like a mall cop, thinking like a mall cop...NOT a pro, moonlighting as a Loss Specialist...think about it....then get back to me...

Of course he chose to close the thread...Curious why? Because he was afraid I would post this...


I'll just quote you and the post number since you closed the thread rather than keep out trolls and discuss it like a man.

Post 1

In post 1 we learn the is an unknown subject you want to check out at the jewelry counter ..." I could tell even on camera that he was making the ladies behind the counter nervous. So I headed up to their location, and my partner stayed behind to keep the whole thing on as many cameras as we could. He checked form the camera's eye view for any visible weapons, and I scanned as I walked to see if he had lookouts with him. I couldn't identify any, but I still planned out my routes for engaging, disengaging, and giving chase if it came to that while still allowing for cover and concealment if he turned out to be armed. As I got close, I could smell booze, and I noticed a big bulge in his jacket pocket. I waved off the jewelry counter ladies to keep them from acknowledging me, and I circled to get a better look at his pocket. It was a rear-facing slash pocket, so I could see inside. It looked like he just had a wad of napkins nad random papers, but those can easily conceal a weapon, so I moved closer with care. His left hand was visible, and because its position dragged his jacket up, I could see his waistband on that side. All clear. SO I determined I'd need to be more careful of his right, since it was the one with the bulge, and since it was still an unknown."

Here we establish you have no idea if he is armed or even a threat, there are multiple ladies behind the counter and you have cameras and a partner to back you up.

"He hadn't broken any laws yet, so I couldn't legally take any action. However, I believe in stop-hitting, so when I walked up to the jewelry counter, I made sure my radio and handcuffs were in plain sight. I also kept the counter in between us and gave myself at least three offensive capabilities if things started to go bad. I had a pen in my hand (a favorite weapon because of its innocuous nature), my handcuffs (excellent brass knuckles, if the situation dictates), and a convenient "30% Off Sale" sign on the counter that could act as both a bludgeon and a shield. My presence made him very nervous, and he immediately offered to allow me the chance to talk with the jewelry ladies while he "thought about his purchase some more." He walked in figure 8's around me, with my partner relaying his position via a numbering system we have worked out for literally every part of the store. I knew where he was all the time, and I knew what he was doing with his hands. My partner told me he had attempted to approach the counter again four times, but quickly changed direction when he saw I was still there. He finally left through an exterior door to the parking lot. I waited for a few minutes and then headed down to see what kind of car he was driving, and he was coming back in the store. I made up a radio call (prearranged for just such cases) and headed back up with a fake report of a workman's comp claim to maintain a presence at the counter again. Again, he looked nervous and suspicious, visibly sweating under his far-too-heavy coat. We scanned again, since he had a new and out of sight opportunity to acquire weapons, and came up with the same results. If he was going to do something, it would be me against him, and we'd both be armed in some manner or another. The difference between us was that I was limited as to what I could do and he was not. I made up my mind that I'd stay ready to stab him right through the eyeball with that trusty pen if I had to, but that I'd try to take him down and put him in cuffs without life-changing violence if it was at all possible."


And here the amateur behavior begins...You dont know if he is armed or not... so you make sure he sees your Radio and handcuffs...and you put the counter between you and him so you could attack with either your pen, your handcuffs or throw the sign at him. And again, you scan the room to look for more weapons and decide yep, You've made the right choices... stabbing him in the eye is your plan of action if things get ugly...and you're gonna throw the sign for distraction. And, we see that if he doesn't do anything violent you plan on arresting him without violence.

So far what I get is you put a barrier between you and the unknown threat planning to stab him in the eye with the pen, but you weren't going to stab him in the eye unless he started shooting witnesses...you said he could pull it and demand merchandise but you wouldnt stab him in the eye until after he started shooting...

Post 31 you state how as a professional you have prepared for this situation and are ready to implement these options.

"If it was a matter of merchandise, of course the guy would have walked away clean. But I was not, am not, and will not get caught in the headlights because I simply expect him to be satisfied with merchandise. See, what I developed was what we professionals like to call a "plan." A "plan" allows us to prepare for the eventualities of a situation. For example -

Option A - the guy pulls a gun and demands the jewelry. We hand it over, and he goes away. Merchandise replaceable, injuries = 0.

Option B - the guy pulls a gun and demands the jewelry. He then decides it might be a good idea to shoot the witnesses, so he gets a pen in the eyeball and a righteous ass-whupping from someone who was not content to stand idly by and get shot for lack of fighting back.

Option C - the guy demands the jewelry but does not have a weapon. I take him down with a minimum of force and arrest him per local laws and store policy.

Option D - the guy buys a nice bracelet for his wife and goes home without incident."


This is what REALLY proved to me you have no understanding of the dynamics of a life and death struggle outside the Rambo fantasies in your head... YOU will be the first person he shoots because you already showed him your cuffs and radio, HE KNOWS YOU ARE SECURITY!! So YOU die on the first shot...hard to fight back now huh? (god forbid the robber not be stupid and take 3 steps back before drawing his weapon) Not that it would have mattered from behind a barrier (the counter you put between you for "safety") when your chosen weapon was an ink pen. And now you see why I called it a Rambo fantasy...because that's what you were doing, fantasizing about shit that wasnt even possible due to your own actions!! You got behind a barrier that prevented you from closing the distance needed to deploy your weapon!! An amateur move that shows NO understanding what you are doing, especially since your weapon of choice demanded you wait until he was shooting before you could use it as did your plan according to your own post... Further the thought with how you were going to throw the sign and clipboard at him to distract him from shooting you while you either jump over or run around the counter to get close enough to stab him in the eye with the ink pen you so wisely chose..all the while he is shooting at you...notice due to throwing the sign and clipboard you dont even have a free hand to attempt to deflect his weapon hand while you try to stab him in the eye with your pen while he is moving and shooting you...Seeing the Rambo fantasy unravel yet?

Now before you start whining about me picking on you...IF you had used Verbal judo like I suggested to make him think Sheriff deputies were in the store, then instead of showing him your radio and cuffs (thus "telling" him you're trying to intimidate him...wanna bet he noticed the lack of any weapon and was made more confident?) You could have stayed close enough to use the clip board EDGE to attack his weapon arm/hand as he tried to deploy the weapon, this could be "bounced" under his chin/nose to down him after stopping and controlling the draw and wouldnt require you to wait until he started shooting as in your so called plan. No need for trying a low percentage move like stabbing him in the eye with your pen from behind a counter...AFTER he starts shooting!!! You didnt have to resort to half assed Rambo fantasies that would have gotten you fired at minimum and probably killed along with all the other witnesses either, but you did...MMA mindset obviously didnt prepare you for security work or SD when thats the thought process you got from training it.

All this testosterone flavored Bullshit REALLY stands out now doesnt it? " I was well prepared" ..... I had ten sets of non-vlinking eyes watching him from every angle and feeding me intel..... I had a tactically versed partner watching for buddies and checking routes......I had tow sets of educated eyes looking for weapons ...
I had a solid plan for what I'd do given any of a half-dozen "triggers" he could pull. Had this been in Vegas, I'd have bet the mortgage I was moments away from a serious fight....

Bwahahahaha sounds like I'm reading a Rouge warrior book, not a day in the life of a loss specialist at the mall.

I love how you spout Bullshit like...."The possibility was very real that I'd be forced to (GASP!!) use MMA type tactics in a real fight against an armed bad guy."

Yet you listed these as your plan...

"use thrown weapons like the sign and my clipboard to get close, move low and behind the thick steel and glass cases, and when you get close, hit something vital with a sharp pointy object many, many times - or, drag him into the various barriers, get control of that right hand, choke him out and cuff him) came together flawlessly."

Steel cases, hitting vital points with anything, much less with sharp pointy objects...dragging him into barriers...exactly which of these were MMA tactics? Oh yeah not a damn one...but after doing that you planned to choke and cuff him...guess what, only the choke is MMA...so really one MMA technique was an option of many and was also the last and least viable of all your genius ideas that day...like I said in the beginning this was a story better suited to impress Waitresses at Dennys than show how effective you or MMA are for security or SD.

post 28

"You know, Bore, next year, I'm just going to break down and send you that hooked on phinics program I've been meaning to buy you. You have such a gift for selective reading it's truly an impressive thing to behold! I said I'd have stabbed the guy in the eyeball with a pen if I saw any evidence that he was packing a gun. Are you not the big advocate here of being prepared to go all the way?"

Sure I am when it's neccesary, and realistic, neither was the case in your fantasy.

post 62
"there were two people behind the counter that night - one helping another customer on the far side of a large safe and the other dealing with the subject himself. There were 26 other cameras watching the rest of the store, and trained persons watching them."

26 cameras on the rest of the store...and trained persons..

hmm isn't persons plural? But it was all up to Rambo, thats why you were planning on stabbing him in the eye with your pen AFTER he started shooting remember?

post 70
"Assuming you were in a store at a jewelry counter that had been held up at gunpoint for $76,000, and assuming you spotted someone asking suspicious questions, looking drugged, making those you were entrusted to protect visibly frightened and uncomfortable, and assuming you were the only person designated to handle it"

Funny You wanted ME to deal with it alone (and imply you were) but according to YOUR own count YOU had these assets...."I had ten sets of non-vlinking eyes watching him from every angle and feeding me intel..... I had a tactically versed partner watching for buddies and checking routes......I had tow (sp) sets of educated eyes looking for weapons " and ANOTHER " 26 sets of cameras and trained persons watching them"

post 75
BoarSpear has droned for over a year now about his love of blades and his obsession with assuming everyone you'll ever fight will be armed, but he has serious ethical problems with me even thinking about stabbing a gun wielding robber with a pen?

I have ethical problems with an unarmed guard without a clue what he is doing trying to stab an armed robber when there were PLENTY of better options (and ORDERS to the contrary)... BTW it isn't just ethical questions, I'm questioning WAY more than your ethics.

[knifethrower]

In real life modern fighting however, dim mak is not practical because in a real fight your opponent is not going to stand there and watch you channel your internal energy and let you strike them.

If you read about how some of the dim mak master fights in documents and such, they are usually opportunists. They wait until you get close and when you strike with a hard attack, they reteliate with a quick jab to your pressure points as a counter.

So do dim mak masters wait to channel their Ki energy or do they retaliate with a quick jab

[Drunken Munky]

their Ki energy

hmmmm.... Japanese terminology..... Interesting

[Mephariel]

So do dim mak masters wait to channel their Ki energy or do they retaliate with a quick jab

From what I understand, the one master stand still to gather his energy and wait for the opponent move in close. Then when the guy strike him hard in a commited punch using long fist the master blocked it and quickly struck him with a finger jab.

[Drunken Munky]

So do dim mak masters wait to channel their Ki energy or do they retaliate with a quick jab

<From what I know>

I just like to point out that Chi isn't used to hit with, in the sense of your Chi intereacting with your opponent.

[BoarSpear]

Hehehehehe Chi, Ki, WHATever

'cmon now, knifethrower is screwing with you guys...