Tai Chi,good self-defense art or not?

[MuayThaiFighter]

HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHA

oh ..... the ..... hilarity ....... of .... it ....... all!!!!



Tai chi doesn’t have any kata in the Karate sense of the word. It has forms and their meaning, execution and principle are worlds apart from Karate.

I think we have found the reason for your ignorance!

Just because it's not called katas in Tai Chi doesn't mean that they're not katas.The forms maybe different but they're still forms.

Call it what you want but the fact is whether done in Tai Chi or Karate,they are still pre-arranged forms and that's exactly what katas are.

KATAS=Japanese word for FORMS (Pre-arranged techniques)

I don't know what they call it in Tai Chi but the idea is the same.

[chris davis 200]

As far as rooting,balance and basic foot work, Muay Thai teaches that too.

I never said it didnt. but i think you will find that most Muay Thai fighters have no real ability to root themselves to defend throws. Hence the reason they get thrown about a bunch by San Shou guys.

How can it teach you application of force when it's all done striking air ? That makes no sense.The force in martial arts comes from hitting something or someone.

ONLY ONE SECTION OF TAI CHI IS FORM!!!! in form work - YOU DO NOT - practice striking - but working from tendons and alignement! Now can i make this any clearer for you! IN FORM YOU DO NOT PRACTICE STRIKING!

You honestly think push hand movements will be able to help you throw a person in a real situation? If you do you're living in a dream world.It's not that simple.Perhaps it'll work on an attacker if he just stands there in one place without resisting but that would never happen.

Pushing hands is not a fighting method - it is a training method. just like skipping in Muay thai or boxiing - would skipping over a rope be useful in a fight? Pushing hands teaches a skill - the skill of following an opponents movement, not just by site but also by touch. Kinda important wouldnt you think>>?>

Use tai chi to hit my vital points and you can guarantee I will be smashing you to pieces or maybe even take you to ground and start pounding on you.

If i jam my fingers hard into your throat you wont be pounding anyone you will probably be puking. Vital points are not magical they are practical!

Any punches to head,upper cuts,hooks to body and head,chokes,arm bars?

Plenty, and groundwork, and knife work, and stick work!!! the reason it is not what you consider tai chi is because you dont KNOW tai chi. You know tai chi forms for exersise.

What you learn is important but it's also how you learn it,if you guys are using it by standing in front of each other and exchanging techniques using push hands most of the time instead of moving around like a boxing or kickboxing match then how you learn it is pointless.

We dont learn in either of those ways. Free fighting is just that, not a kick boxing match.

It is not a you punch i defend art like Karate either.

As i have said it has a specific progression of PRINCIPLES not techniques. you progress from pre arranged attacks to any attacks armed or unarmed. Not something that you will find in most Thai boxing schools.

Well despite what you say,whether it's true or not,why learn something that takes years to learn when you can learn how to fight within a year or less ?

You can learn to fight very very effectiveley in under a year using tai chi if this is your focus. Muay thai teaches some aspects of combat very quickly but misses others.

I have defended my life with Internal Chinese arts on a few occasions as a doorman and it works - end of story.

Learning self-defense can no doubt take years to be proficient at but it shouldn't take years to be able to learn alot of effective techniques,after all not everyone wants to be a martial arts instructor or cares to compete.

If your learning lots of effective techniques your kinda on the wrong track anyways - learning a few effective principles that translate to any attack is a far better route. something that tai chi does very well when taught correctly. tai chi has 4 main principles that translate to its whole fighting stratergy. 4 principles vrs 1000 effective techniques - i will take the principles every time.

Karate which I did for 12yrs. does alot of forms,I now do Pankration which I've been in now for 7yrs.I had learnt more my first year of Pankration then I did when doing karate forms for 12yrs.That has got to say something about katas.

NO that says something about Karate - or moreover - your Karate training.

Karate and Tai chi cannot be compared in any way.

Chris

[chris davis 200]

Just because it's not called katas in Tai Chi doesn't mean that they're not katas.The forms maybe different but they're still forms.

Call it what you want but the fact is whether done in Tai Chi or Karate,they are still pre-arranged forms and that's exactly what katas are.

KATAS=Japanese word for FORMS (Pre-arranged techniques)

I don't know what they call it in Tai Chi but the idea is the same.

The idea is not the same - that is my point!!!

Karate Kata's and Tai chi forms do not have similar focus', do not have similar body mechanics, do not have similar ideas, do not have similar principles.

A single tai chi form is performed in many different ways depending upon various factors or focuses, the slow form you see is just one of many many ways to perform a single form. Karate form is generally done in a very set and specific way.

The only similarity is they are both performed alone.

Chris

[Sircnay]

You shouldn't bother. He's like an abused child who doesn't understand that a pat on the back doesn't mean daddy's gonna take you out to the shack in the backyard after he beats you.

I know combatitive tai chi works. I've never been able to hit a guy no matter how fast or how quickly I move. He just "knows" when and where and how hard I am going to be coming in. I did Muay Thai, I did TKD, hell after my first encounter with my friend's dad who did the Tai Chi, I even dabbled in it.

It's made me a much better fighter because of it. MTF, you're just stupid.

[jubaji]

Neither.It comes from doing forms in karate.I know Tai Chi is different from karate but katas are katas.

I have tried it a few times and saw how boring and useless it was.Besides it's only common sense that Tai Chi is not any good for self-defense and isn't meant for that.

So, you have as much as admitted that you have no clue what the **** you are talking about.


But then you're just a canadian so I guess I shouldn't expect too much...

[Tom Yum]

Intangible

I have practiced a basic taiji form that I do now and then when I am sore. I think I am begining to understand Chris what he says about rooting and alignment.

There is a heavy door in a school building that I pass through now and then. Most people struggle behind its weight as they are pushing the door with their arms. Even when they regroup to open it, they tense up and push more with the arms and the door passes slowly...

I walked to the door, with arms relaxed (checked to make sure no one was looking ) and sank into a lower stance and did a double hand push transfering my weight uniformly and slowly (not jerking at all) through my base and the door popped open as if I had hit it with a running start.

I could have push kicked the door and sent it open just the same.

Still, I see it as an art like aikido that uses your opponents motion against him, while taking away your opponent's balance while allways obtaining the most stable position for yourself.

[Jeremy Lobdell]

Call it what you want but the fact is whether done in Tai Chi or Karate,they are still pre-arranged forms and that's exactly what katas are.

Sounds just like shadow boxing. How much of that (shadow boxing) do you do? Working the same patterns over and over and punching and kicking the air, I wonder where they got such a great idea from?

[MuayThaiFighter]

So, you have as much as admitted that you have no clue what the **** you are talking about.


But then you're just a canadian so I guess I shouldn't expect too much...

**** you.Just Canadian!!!!! We're better then Americans who think they know it all and are arrogant little shits.You guys think you're better then everyone else but you guys aren't.

[Tom Yum]

**** you.Just Canadian!!!!! We're better then Americans who think they know it all and are arrogant little shits.You guys think you're better then everyone else but you guys aren't.

There's gonna be a brawl soon, but I favor Canadian beer with my chicken fried steak, and gravied fries

[MuayThaiFighter]

Sounds just like shadow boxing. How much of that (shadow boxing) do you do? Working the same patterns over and over and punching and kicking the air, I wonder where they got such a great idea from?

Okay so you got a good point about the punching in air in shadow boxing,however there is a huge difference between shadow boxing and katas.Shadow boxing aren't pre-arranged movements and don't have a particular pattern to follow.

Katas follow a set pattern.

In shadow boxing we create our own patterns and they change up all the time.Also in shadow boxing we're fighting ourselves,it's more then just punching and kicking air like in katas.We move side to side,back and forth,diagonally,and in circular motions katas are just side to side back and forth and then side to side again continuously repeating itself.Shadow boxing also doesn't have ridiculous stances like katas do.

So to say katas came from shadow boxing is ridiculous since they're nothing alike.

Shadow boxing is foundation to sparring and becoming a better fighter,katas aren't,you would never fight the same way you do katas unless you're stupid and don't mind getting beaten up.

To answer your question,we actually do very little shadow boxing 20% of our techniques will be done hitting and kicking shields and 40% practiced on an opponent and 40% of actual sparring.When we do shadow boxing it's usually just to warm up and it's rare that we do it.

[jubaji]

a leaf...impressive

**** you.Just Canadian!!!!! We're better then Americans who think they know it all and are arrogant little shits.You guys think you're better then everyone else but you guys aren't.

ho, ho! How cute! Don't feel bad. You might become a real country some day.



well.........probably not

[MuayThaiFighter]

ho, ho! How cute! Don't feel bad. You might become a real country some day.



well.........probably not

Well we are a real country compared to you guys anyways.A real country doesn't vote for some ass bit puppet like BUSH and a real country doesn't go around the world starting wars as in Iraq just to get some freaking oil and doesn't let 1000s of their own men die for something that their own country shouldn't have started in first place.

A real country respects other countries and knows the difference betweeen wrong and good.A real good country doesn't go around calling other countries around the world evil,so don't tell me about being in a real country.

I don't care if U.S has a bigger population or a bigger army, to me what makes a country is the attitude of both the gov't and the people of that region.You Americans voted for a moron which makes me have less respect for you guys but I'm not here to argue about politics,I'm here to discuss martial arts after all it is a martial arts forum.

[MuayThaiFighter]

don't use the term "Oriental" for people. That's for furniture and stuff. People from Asia are Asian. Carpets and such are "Oriental".

By the way Jubaji,what the heck are you talking about ? Oriental is not just for furniture and stuff.Oriental means anyone or anything that comes from a country of the Orient.

Asian can mean anyone from China,Japan,India,Sri Lanka,Thailand,Taiwan,Hong Kong,Iraq,Iran,Afghanistan,Pakistan etc.

Oriental specifies the regions of Asia.Sri Lanka,India,Iraq and Iran for example are not part of the orient although still part of Asia.

Don't worry I know what you mean though,because furniture and stuff is what people usually refer to when using Oriental as a term but that's only part of the real meaning for Oriental.

Just to let you know I wasn't trying to be racist.

[Jeremy Lobdell]

Okay so you got a good point about the punching in air in shadow boxing,however there is a huge difference between shadow boxing and katas.Shadow boxing aren't pre-arranged movements and don't have a particular pattern to follow.

Aren't you working your combos in a specific "pre-arranged order" like jab, cross, hook and jab, cross, leg kick, ect... These are all prearanged to be more effective when done in a certain order.
I'm not trying to attack you , as others have done. It just seems that hypocritical statements like these open you up for a lot of abuse. If you don't like kata, great. I'm not a fan of it myself, but it would be foolish and shortsited of me to think it is totally useless. By thinking that it is completely beneath you, you give yourself 0% chance of learning anything new.

And by the way, your definition of being a real country must include taking over half of a persons pay so that all the lazy people who don't work get free ( but crappy ) medical care. If that's a real country, you can have it!

[MuayThaiFighter]

Aren't you working your combos in a specific "pre-arranged order" like jab, cross, hook and jab, cross, leg kick, ect... These are all prearanged to be more effective when done in a certain order.
I'm not trying to attack you , as others have done. It just seems that hypocritical statements like these open you up for a lot of abuse. If you don't like kata, great. I'm not a fan of it myself, but it would be foolish and shortsited of me to think it is totally useless. By thinking that it is completely beneath you, you give yourself 0% chance of learning anything new.

And by the way, your definition of being a real country must include taking over half of a persons pay so that all the lazy people who don't work get free ( but crappy ) medical care. If that's a real country, you can have it!

Aren't you working your combos in a specific "pre-arranged order" like jab, cross, hook and jab, cross, leg kick, ect... These are all prearanged to be more effective when done in a certain order.

Nope.We learn jabs,cross,shin kicks,knee kicks etc.but there is no set order in shadow boxing,we make our own combos.

If you don't like kata, great. I'm not a fan of it myself, but it would be foolish and shortsited of me to think it is totally useless. By thinking that it is completely beneath you, you give yourself 0% chance of learning anything new.

Like I said before I did karate for several years so learning katas would not be learning something new,been there done that and don't care to do it any more.I know all my Goju Ryu katas up to ni dan(second degree black belt).I was supposed to test for my 3rd degree black belt but quit just before the test because I wanted to try something else,something more competitive and something with full contact.So I am someone who is always willing to learn something new.I've done karate,submission wrestling,muay thai,and pankration.

I'm not saying don't do katas,because it's for some people and not for others like myself,however if you do katas don't claim it to be self-defense and more realistic then MT because it isn't.See katas as an art form,just as ballet is a form of art that also has set movements of course they're not called katas but it can be sort of looked at in same way.Katas are more of a way of expressing oneself at least that is how I see it.