Tai Chi,good self-defense art or not?

[Red Rum]

I used to walk away from confrontations as my karate instructor was all for 'self defence only' etc.

Then I found that one of the guys I had walked away from had hassled my best mate because I had walked away.

Ever since, if a guy tries to start a fight, I destroy them. Repercussions will happen whether you fight or not.

I have heard of stories where people walk away from fights and get stabbed in their back for their trouble

My belief is that anyone who wants to start a fight has lost his right for mercy. I go drinking a lot and get drunk and never once have I started a fight because of alcohol. If people get aggressive because they are drunk, then they shouldn't drink.

This whole 'live and let live' philosophy is nonsense. All it means is that the people starting fights win everytime. It is like handing the keys of the playground to the bully's. If I am having a great night out and someone gets jealous and wants to ruin my night, why should I let them?

[medic06]

I used to walk away from confrontations as my karate instructor was all for 'self defence only' etc.

Then I found that one of the guys I had walked away from had hassled my best mate because I had walked away.

Ever since, if a guy tries to start a fight, I destroy them. Repercussions will happen whether you fight or not.

I have heard of stories where people walk away from fights and get stabbed in their back for their trouble

My belief is that anyone who wants to start a fight has lost his right for mercy. I go drinking a lot and get drunk and never once have I started a fight because of alcohol. If people get aggressive because they are drunk, then they shouldn't drink.

This whole 'live and let live' philosophy is nonsense. All it means is that the people starting fights win everytime. It is like handing the keys of the playground to the bully's. If I am having a great night out and someone gets jealous and wants to ruin my night, why should I let them?

Maybe it's different where you are from but that kind of attitude would get you shot, stabbed, beaten, killed, and/or jailed in no time over here in the 'States.

[Tom Yum]

Totally agree man... it's usually something that subtly oneself may have done to have triggered an attack or insult.

So someone may have done something subtly and its reason enough to warrant an attack? Is this a martial philosophy of your system -- because attacking someone whom may have done something subtly sounds an aweful lot like some one who thinks high and mighty of themselves

Why not come out and clear the air?

i've already told the people around me that should anybody attack me, whether it's an old enemy or some random person, they should get clear, run as fast as they can to safety, and call the cops. that's really the best thing to do, and the best help they can and should offer. i'll just try and delay whatever's happening, giving them time and chance to run away.

I disagree completely. The buddy system works, whether against an enemy or a random person. Why not deal with the situation at hand, then call the cops?

Take the VT shooting incident. If several people swarmed him, some might have been shot, but they would collectively stomped him into a pulp.

Even better, Richard Reid, the shoe f*cker oh, I mean shoe 'bomber' -- whom got a nice beating, courtesy of the collective passengers on the flight.

[lucidmist]

[QUOTE=Tom Yum;275993]So someone may have done something subtly and its reason enough to warrant an attack? Is this a martial philosophy of your system -- because attacking someone whom may have done something subtly sounds an aweful lot like some one who thinks high and mighty of themselves

Why not come out and clear the air?

Tom Yum, you've misunderstood what I meant man. When I said the part about someone having done something subtle to warrant an attack, I meant oneself doing something subtle, and someone attacking you for doing something subtle. No way in any of my posts that I have advocated taking the offense first. Firstly, I'm not capable of that, secondly, I hate picking fights. Read my post properly, maybe I phrased it wrongly, but I'm clearing the air now: did not mean it as taking the offense, and never will mean that.

I will draw it clearer. I have been in situations where I did nothing, probably just saw someone walking past, and sometimes it's just reflex that you glance over at the person, but without looking aggressive or anything, just a quick one-second glance before looking away and going about your own business, and that person actually comes up to pick a fight. All kinds of people in this world. That was what I meant when I said, "oneself doing something subtle". I meant me, doing something subtle, and somebody comes up to pick a fight. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. Even so, I'd still choose to reason out by explaining that I was just walking and that glance wasn't anything. It'd be crazy, and awfully stupid to just jump into a fight over that. That guy could be carrying a gun or a knife, for all I know. I ain't no hero.

As for the buddy system thing, it can work both ways. I don't disagree with you. But I'd rather let whoever's caught in the crossfire run away than have them hurt because of me. To each his/her own. If the "buddy" chooses to stay and help instead, that's his choice. But I would be selfish to expect him to help.

[lucidmist]

Anyway, check out the videos here:

http://wongkk.com/general/videos-muay-thai.html

Some moves against Muay Thai. Personally, I have my doubts whether they will work. Although the instructor may be an experienced Muay Thai boxer, true Muay Thai practitioners have much tougher bodies and extreme resistance against attacks... I don't think those moves demonstrated in the videos would've taken out a Muay Thai boxer easily... nice idea, nice concept, but practicality, not there.

That and the fact that the instructor was wearing socks and they were demonstrating on the rubber mat. If it was gravel ground, I don't think the instructor would've been able to slide so easily out of MT attacks. Just not realistic.. I may be wrong.

Well, no offense to Shaolin or other Taiji practitioners out there, just my opinions that these won't work against the hardened bodies of MT fighters. If you've seen these moves actually executed in real life situations, and they worked, please share!

[Tom Yum]

The side kick defense against boxing style punches works well. I've pulled it off in tournaments against other stylists - does that count as real life? I've also planted a side kick into the body outside of the dojo.

Its a common defense used by a lot of traditional MA-ists whom do not wish to stay in punching range against a good puncher.

The puncher gets within punching range and fires a jab, cross or jab-cross. The MA-ist leans away from the jab or cross and thrusts a lead leg side kick into the ribs or solar plexus.

If you land it square into someone whom fights alot or conditions alot, it'll make a smack noise, move them back a foot or two and get an 'mmmmmphh' since your kick has forced air out of them. If it was hard enough, you just might earn their respect and get them to rethink of a way to get back into punching range - they may try to feint, fake or something to get you commit to another kick and then close during your recover with another jab or a big right hand over the top.

Against someone who doesn't condition their abs, lead leg side kick will stagger them and cause them to fold over for a few seconds; a stepping side kick can bruise/break ribs, take them off their feet (depending how large) and potentially stop a fight.

[Tom Yum]

Would you please share some taiji combat/self-defense applications?

Thanks.

[lucidmist]

Hey awesome, thanks for sharing... but from a Muay Thai point of view, let's say those traditional MA moves were executed on you, would you have been stopped? You'd be able to out-manuveure? Your body either could take the hits, or you would've faked a jab to lure that kick, and as the MA's sidekick reaches you, you'd stop his leg by pulling your elbow down hard on the side of his calf, cos many of them don't practice fast pullback. Or would it be possible for you to step outside the kick (say the kick is being delivered to your right rib, and you take a step out towards your left to get out of its way) and deliver a kick to their head, chest, knee or groin? That's if you were faking a punch or a jab.. Ha, sorry if I'm wrong, I'm not an expert...

For taiji... many moves, but honestly, against strong muay thai fighters, i'm not sure if they'd work in putting them down. definitely plenty of delay strategies, but after execution i had better be able to run away fast cos if the MT guy recovers, ha, i have to start preaching taoism to him and hope he'll convert (that or receive a worse beating from him).

ok, got to clarify something... most (not all) taiji that is being taught around the world, is a heavily condensed version... taiji was originally created with plenty of hard movements in it, together with the soft. that was what made it formidable, blending soft (making use of the opponent's force) with hard (fa jing, lashing out with full body force after having placed the opponent in an imbalanced or vulnerable position). check out Goju Ryu karate, it's the same hard-soft theory, Chojun Miyagi derived his style after trips to China. Although he didn't believe in competitions, during the tournaments, goju ryu students usually won against the harder styles. i may be wrong, but that was what i read in my earlier studies.

And it's not entirely true what many claim, that only Chen style taiji is for combat. The soft Yang style originally had tough hard moves too. They were removed. The reason was commercialization. Not saying it's totally useless, but it's left with mostly basic defense and "chi" practice. we all know that without practice, no single technique can be good. thus, if you were not trained to punch hard during practice of forms or just punching against a bag, most often you'd not be able to punch to your full potential effectively. simple fact that the practice develops the right muscles. so it's common sense that most taiji these days, would definitely not stand up against most MAs, least of all MT, unless you were fortunate enough to get the original hard/soft style.

My apologies to those who already knew all of the above, just for the benefit of those who're still in the delusion that completely soft taiji can hold up against anything.

Actually, it's pretty basic.. say someone throws a punch, we usually will not block it. Deflecting, stepping away and parrying, or even moving into the attacks are the basic defense moves (plenty of common stuff shared by most MAs, but never hard blocking or going against the opponent's force). And the techniques must be executed in a circular movement. This is broken down into small circle and large circle. In most real-life situations, the small circles are used as they are faster. Although large circles work against stronger attacks, the few milliseconds' delay can prove fatal.

As with anything, speed of execution is extremely important. Timing, precise. One effective move against a punch from someone with a more frontal stance instead of a 45-degree stance, is the shoulder slam. But you really have to be fast, any delay and his other guarding hand or elbow will get you.

From my limited limited limited knowledge, i think the only way taiji can stand a chance is by waiting for an offensive attack (a "big" technique, like a roundhouse or side kick, not short-burst attacks like jabs or quick low kicks) from Muay Thai to be completed before stepping in to perform a strike. No way taiji practitioners can withstand hits blow for blow and trade punches or kicks. No matter which art, upon completion of a "bigger" or wider technique is when the opponent is slowed down, even if by a few milliseconds. What I noticed is, with more impatient opponents, they usually can't wait to close the distance, and after awhile, they tend to take bigger swings or kicks cos they've lost patience waiting for me to move or get close, and it's usually then that i take the opportunity to hit them hard. Of cos, the more experienced fighters would've known of other methods to draw me closer or close the gap. I wouldn't stand a chance against opponents like that cos i'm alot weaker in terms of strategy and strength.

Forgot to mention, in close quarters, unless you have developed your stability and footwork fairly well in taiji, it's impossible to be of use against MT fighters or western boxers. Unless the taiji guy was already big and strong to begin with. This is because taiji's defense and attack come from the utilization of the entire body's movement, as one. If your lower footwork and stability are not developed, opponents will pulverize you with a normal punch.

One last bit. Taiji, although practised in forms, does not believe in having a fixed style either. The forms were just meant for exercise and having an overall practice of the various techniques available (which have been taken away from most forms these days). The principles teach students not to hold on to forms or fixed techniques. So if you're hearing from people about how they switch from taiji to another form of martial art, well, it's kind of far-fetched cos a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. In the heat of the moment, you won't classify this as a "karate punch" or a "shaolin fist". It's just a freaking punch that you have to execute the moment you can. Once you see the opportunity created, take it, by all means necessary. This is what taiji advocates. If someone's saying he's switching from taiji to another style and all that jazz, then he doesn't understand taiji cos we were never taught to hold on to styles.

Pardon the long post, again.

[Red Rum]

Maybe it's different where you are from but that kind of attitude would get you shot, stabbed, beaten, killed, and/or jailed in no time over here in the 'States.

That's why I'm glad I live in England. The act of not acting will often get you shot, stabbed, beaten, killed and/or jailed. The only difference is that I might take a few evil b*stards whilst I'm doing it

[polecat63]

Wow, that certainly was a long post. You seem to be saying several things at one. That taiji is a worthy MA, but at the same time is not. You're speaking in generalities, IMHO. If the average Muay Thai practitioner, and the average taiji practitioner got into an altercation it could go either way. It would (as it almost always does) depend on the person themselves, not the style they choose to practice, again IMHO.

The Muay Thai practiced in most schools suffers the same fate that most other MA do, it's a watered down sport art that only resembles the original art. I'm sure that there are schools that teach true Muay Thai, but most do not. Fighting in the ring is certainly different than fighting on the street. The ring has rules so the art had to be altered to fit within certain parameters. Just like you can't throw an elbow in a western boxing match, but would have no problem doing so on the street.

I would really hate to meet a Muay Thai practitioners from the back woods of Thailand, but I've sparred with Muay Thai people in the states and feel I'm on par with the vast majority of them (the ones I've sparred, that is). You only get out of it what you put into it. If someone trains 8 hours a day, 5 days a week chances are he'll very quickly hand your butt to you (else they're wasting a great deal of time and effort). The same goes for the guy (or girl) that only goes to class once a week and that's all the practice they do, chances are they will not be very effective.

The same, of course, goes for internal arts ( I do not practice taiji, but another internal art). Most schools teach a watered down version. I assume because most people don't want to pay big bucks AND have to work too hard. I've sparred taiji, xinyi and mantis practitioners and feel the same about them as I do the Muay Thai people. Although I have had the luxury to face much more experienced Kung Fu people that I would definitely not want to face off with in a real fight.

I guess what my very long post is saying is that it's the person, not the art that usually makes the difference. The intent of the parties involved can make a big difference as well. And just an FYI, the guy in the Taiji vs. Muay Thai vids is wearing shoes, not socks.

[lucidmist]

Hey, cool thanks, my video was very blur and I kept seeing shoes as socks... but even then, with the mat, I presume it's alot easier for him to slide faster and execute the taiji moves against the muay thai attacks. Would it have been as easy on gravel ground or other rougher flooring? And another thing I need advice on, in video 4, when the instructor was demonstrating how to counter the knee strike towards the head, is that practical? Cos I don't think a palm strike can stop the knee strike that easily even when hitting the thigh, unless your elbow lock is really strong and you've really got a strong wrist and won't get it sprained. And the subsequent attacks after that, would it have hurt a well-conditioned MT boxer?

Yup, pardon my long post. I should've been more specific... I guess what I meant was, if you really want to stand a chance with taiji against another martial art, you really have to have learnt the real deal, not the watered down versions. It's not that these trimmed versions are completely useless, and like you said, it depends on the person learning too. But if for someone who's totally never been trained to punch hard properly (like you do in real taiji, including elbows, kicks, locks, throws and body slams, etc) while learning the watered down version of taiji, i guess he's gonna have a hard time holding his own even against regular brawlers (but like you said again, depends on individual).

The real deal definitely is a worthy MA. But against a well-conditioned MT boxer, I guess no matter which art you're in, you better be able to generate real power fast. And if a taiji practitioner actually grasped true taiji's principles in theory and in practice, like using footwork and balance, I'd say he will have a real chance against MT (not me definitely). Even the original Yang style instead of today's oldie folksie style.

Sorry my last post seemed general, but as I said, it was based on my limited limited experience. I just didn't want to say anything that I myself couldn't do. And I didn't want to kick off another farce like other posts by saying "my teacher can do this and do that" or "i saw this happen and that happen" cos people hate the third-person story.

One last thing, is Ramon Dekkers like THE guy? I've seen his fights and he's good!

[medic06]

That's why I'm glad I live in England. The act of not acting will often get you shot, stabbed, beaten, killed and/or jailed. The only difference is that I might take a few evil b*starts whilst I'm doing it

Insert . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . here

[Garland]

If the average Muay Thai practitioner, and the average taiji practitioner got into an altercation it could go either way. It would (as it almost always does) depend on the person themselves, not the style they choose to practice, again IMHO.

The Muay Thai practiced in most schools suffers the same fate that most other MA do, it's a watered down sport art that only resembles the original art. I'm sure that there are schools that teach true Muay Thai, but most do not. Fighting in the ring is certainly different than fighting on the street. The ring has rules so the art had to be altered to fit within certain parameters. Just like you can't throw an elbow in a western boxing match, but would have no problem doing so on the street.

I would really hate to meet a Muay Thai practitioners from the back woods of Thailand, but I've sparred with Muay Thai people in the states and feel I'm on par with the vast majority of them (the ones I've sparred, that is).

...you've got no fucking clue. Stop talking shit, shut up, and stop pretending to know.

[Garland]

Anyway, check out the videos here:

http://wongkk.com/general/videos-muay-thai.html

Some moves against Muay Thai. Personally, I have my doubts whether they will work.

I don't know any boxer that would let any of those even happen. Let me extend my knee out to you...? Dur. Maybe a guy practicing for under 8 weeks might get caught with that shit. No halfway decent amatuer fighter would ever even have that shit landed on him.

[lucidmist]

that is why i said i have my doubts the moves would work.

but i agree with polecat about many muay thai schools being watered down. many that i know of don't even let you spar that frequently even after a year, or do any body conditioning.