Escrima Empty Hand vs Wing Chun

[Serrada]

This is a very interesting subject for me because I have dedicated my life to both of these MA. I often question FMA and Wing Chung (WC) origins. WC is only 300 years old and its lineage is so documented while FMA seems to be more questionable and had many influences. Both arts have similar goals in my opinion. That is it quickly train the average person to effectively defend themselves against trained soldiers. In WC it was to train the Hans to beat the Manchu soldiers whom were trained in classical animal styles of Kung Fu. I FMA it was to train farmers to protect there land and to rise up against the many invaders of the Philippians. Both arts were devised to train basically farmers to defeat trained martial artist. Sorry, I keep calling FMA as if it is one art as apposed to Serrada Style Eskrima which is my primary background in FMA. Anyway, both arts utilize only the most effective techniques. Both utilize the centerline principle and the getting to the blind side principle along with many others. Both have sensitivity drills etc. IMHO the weapons are superior in FMA and the Traditional WC standing empty hand may have an edge. I choose to train and teach FMA not because one art is superior just personal preference. I do teach FMA with a concept approach that I received from WC. It stuck in my head best that way and gives student the ability to progress beyond my abilities and analyze other MA more effectively.

[sikal]

Do you know what "Hubad" means????????

"Naked!!!!"

for example:
HandtoHand is already naked when he fights mad last Tuesday.

meaning:
No clothes, or naked (exposed)

CONVINCED???????

Yes, I've heard that. But I've also heard that in some dialects it means "to untie." Or does the spelling, "hubud" change the meaning? I've seen it spelled that way but assumed (perhaps erroneously) that it was just a variation in spelling.

Mike

[krys]

To serrada,
I wasn't able to learn the wc Bart Chum Dao form (butterfly knives ) yet, only the empty hand forms.... how are the knives used compared to escrima? Are there also fighting exercises taught with those weapons beside the form?
Thanks,
Christian.

[Serrada]

To serrada,
I wasn't able to learn the wc Bart Chum Dao form (butterfly knives ) yet, only the empty hand forms.... how are the knives used compared to escrima? Are there also fighting exercises taught with those weapons beside the form?
Thanks,
Christian.

Yes there are many drills. The butterfly swords are much more liner than the eskrima sticks. It’s hard to say what is more effective with similar sized edged weapons. The butterfly sword exercises teach you to be fluid like the hands, but the exercises are deflecting oncoming weapons and counter attacking. While on the other hand eskrima drills teach you to keep going. For example one exercise in WC basically does the same quan sao (bong sao and tan sao combination) empty hand as with the swords. The WC practitioner deflects the incoming attach and basically counters with a slash, slash and stab. In serrada eskrima the lock and block exercise teaches you the same block and counter attack but takes it one step further by continuing countering and attacking. Once learned one practices a prearranged free flow which becomes less prearranged. In this drill one person step forward with an attack and the other steps back with a block then counter attacks and etc. It keeps going and gets really fast and is a lot of fun. This drill gets going so fast you get hit if you don’t defend. Consequently, you learn. I believe fluid drills like this are necessary. For example once you’ve learned the basic of Brazilian Jujitsu you start to roll (wrestle) regularly. This rolling is the kind of training needed to prepare for a real fight, same with boxing. Every once and a while get into a ring and analyze how your WC can be utilized. It’s tuff to do with any MA. But necessary to understand, so you don’t have a false since of security.

Anyway eskrima has brought my WC butterfly swords to a new level of continuous flow. I think training with sticks helps. My experience has been FMAist know how to hit and take a hit with a weapon because of much training and do full contact padded sparring. While in WC most instructors know the drills and forms but do little innovation or analyze the movement as much as FMAist. The good thing about it is both have so many concepts which make since to a WC practitioner or Eskrima practitioner. I knew WC before eskrima and knowing WC make me learn the eskrima caden de mono very quickly. I choose to teach and practice the FMA more because I find it interesting how one style of FMA and another are so similar. I add what I think works and loss what doesn’t based on many concepts I learned in WC. Also, if I was to teach WC I would implement WC drills based on eskrima drills to better the flow.

All this being said if you get hit/sliced/stabbed once the fight is basically over, so the WC swords may be just as effective or more. Also, WC does more simultaneous blocking and attacking. Ex. A thrust to the face with a sword. The WC will block it with one while attacking with the other. There is this also in eskrima but not as apparent.

[krys]

In Cinco Terros Arnis and (muslim) escrima the idea is to attack the incoming arm/hand while moving out of the road at the same time..... there are deflections but mostly used with empty hands.... ideally you chop the arm first and then hack the neck (escrima) or throat/temple (arnis)... We don't use drills it is more on forms and random attacks delivered at different speeds and sparring...

. Every once and a while get into a ring and analyze how your WC can be utilized. It’s tuff to do with any MA. But necessary to understand, so you don’t have a false since of security.

Very true, the thing is that many wc practicioners are not really prepared to grapple.... actually some want to break the fight when you start to grapple during sparring pretending it becomes wrestling !?!.....I find them are also vulnerable to attacks coming from the ground... ie when you drop into a low stance/go down and strike or sweep...

While in WC most instructors know the drills and forms but do little innovation or analyze the movement as much as FMAist.

Hmm actually one need to analyze carefully the movements in wc in order to make them work.... there is lot of hidden knowledge in the forms and those who can't decifer them won't go far in the art....
How many wc student's don't understand basic things like the use of the stance to draw power into their strikes? or even how to punch properly...
I practice both fmas and wc, I found the later harder to learn, could be because filipino guros won't hide much to their students once they get accepted .... chinese peoples are really secretive and it is difficult to get the real stuff from them ...

[blanker]

I really notice that FMA (Filipino Martial Arts) are very popular all over the world but here in Panay Philippines, theres no Filipino Martial Arts here. Only Karate, Tae Kwondo, fake KungFu's, and no Muay Thai.

I have no idea on FMA. Only Arnis.

but for me, Arnis is not a Filipino type of martial art

why????

the complete word of Arnis is "Arnis de Mano"

and..... and the word "de Mano" is not a Filipino word.

its the same were ever you go, catch wrestling origenates from england but theres no one in london who teaches it and only a handful of freestyle wrestling gyms, its far more popular in japan were as judo is for more popular over here.

[MasterKaliSilat]

As a matter of fact, there are close resemblence to all.

It always comes down to those that know, and those that will never know. Accept first, that all martial arts are the same, "not matters what", according to GM Tortal and as I've always said, "Can you stop me or can I stop you."

The similarities are often hidden within the drills, because you're supposed to do them the way the teacher says. What!?! Actually you're supposed to find out how to re-do them, then see the results, practice the rest of your life and re-discover the techniques that are lost by some that profess it must be done this way or that way.

In Kali Silat we often look for a new way that we can do, and you can't until you discover the truth, learn from your friends, money is never an issue and I've seen too many wealthy teachers that don't have a clue that they are the same.

The study of Kali Silat came from our friends and is the study of all ways, find how you do that differently, until you become the art it will always be outside of your understanding. To say the least, after 37 years I'm still learning. regards, Greg

PS: If you study an art, get to the country of origin, it's the best way to see the truth of the art and science you study.

[danjuandesiga]

This is Inosanto-blend influenced.

Can you DIG IT!

[Tant01]

I like that you do the drill while looking at the camera.

Eyes wide open. In a proverbial sense. FEELING it.

Perception has many forms.

Ready for a blindfold?

I dig it!

[Crafty Dog]

A bit tangential to how the question is asked perhaps, but in my personal expression I find that the overwhelming majority of my trapping is Kali/FMA, with an important strand of Jun Fan/Wing Chun. I may be in a Kali trapping blitz and then there comes an instant where the perfect spontaneous response comes from JF/WC.

Why separate the two?

[kingoftheforest]

I like that you do the drill while looking at the camera.

Eyes wide open. In a proverbial sense. FEELING it.

Perception has many forms.

Ready for a blindfold?

I dig it!

We do a very similar drill in class and actually doing it blind folded helped me learn better range in the similar drill.

Now obviously I don't do it blind folded but it did help initially.

[TheSymbol]

No I haven't seen these two styles spar, sorry.

[Jambi99]

Hi there,

i was reading you reading (it is very interesting by the way). I'm presently doing WC since a year . I was may be thinking to switch from WC to FMA, Arnis to be more precise. However, i was just wondering if the FMAs have the same structure than WC. When i say structure i mean the structure of the blocks ,stance ect... Like the 135 degree that you can find in most of WC block. I know that its a strength in WC that you us less muscles but more structures when striking or blocking. Thats also why WC can be practiced while getting older and still be very effective. That because WC doesn't really depend(at least less) on physical conditioning than any other MA. So my question is the following. Is FMA or Arnis share that same strenght with WC?

I'm talking about the empty hand form here...

Thanks!

[shuyun]

i don't know how related this question is. But sometimes i see arnisadors or non wing chun kung fu practicioners wearing a spiked leather wristband.

Other than it looks cool or its a punk fashion statement, is it correct to assume that it is to inhibit the use of hubud or sticky hands against them?

[Da Pope]

Hi there,

i was reading you reading (it is very interesting by the way). I'm presently doing WC since a year . I was may be thinking to switch from WC to FMA, Arnis to be more precise. However, i was just wondering if the FMAs have the same structure than WC. When i say structure i mean the structure of the blocks ,stance ect... Like the 135 degree that you can find in most of WC block. I know that its a strength in WC that you us less muscles but more structures when striking or blocking. Thats also why WC can be practiced while getting older and still be very effective. That because WC doesn't really depend(at least less) on physical conditioning than any other MA. So my question is the following. Is FMA or Arnis share that same strenght with WC?

I'm talking about the empty hand form here...

Thanks!

I made the switch from WC to Arnis 2 years back. There are alot of similarities when at trapping range and the sensitivity thing is for all intents and purposes the same (at least at the level I am at, at the moment)

BUT in my experience Arnis is more concerned with joint control/destruction on initial entry than WC is. WC is by far more centre line dominance and attack.

ALSO in my experience Arnis is better at kicking and grappling ranges than WC, well at least the WC I was taught (a contraversial topic amoungst some WC/VT/WT people).

AND finally Arnis has much much much much much better weapons training methodologies than WC.