Arnis is real situations...empty handed?

[RapidAssault16]

Hey, I've been reading a lot of posts on other websites and I was wondering if anyone has used the FMA's in a real-world street-type situation. I noticed that Black Belt Magazine writer Jim Wagner (www.jimwagnertraining.com) is a huge supporter of the FMA's in his law enforcement career, since the use of the baton is essential to being a law enforcement officer. However, have any civilians used the FMA's in a real confrontation? I'm also curious about the empty hand tactics. One of my guro's once told me that gunting and destructions to the arm muscles aren't functional in a real fight, since adrenalized attackers won't feel the effects of a gunting-type shot to the biceps.

Also, I've noticed that the way the Atienza kali and Pekiti-Tirsia kali styles do empty hands is different from the JKD/Kali-destruction-gunting type methods. Can anyone shed any light on this?

[two sword]

Hello rapid assault. Very common question when it comes to the FMA empty hands. I have found it hard to make the conventional ulnar nerve shot with gunting work in exchanges I had years ago. We modified the manuever to incorporate the body so the shot is more successful. hard to explain how it looks so I won't.

But nerve destructions do work if applied properly. They can go from completely disabling the limb to hurting it for a few seconds to drop your kill shot.

When I was 11 yrs old i gave my father a ulnar shot during some intense training (intense to me at least). He couldn't lift his arm for a week and the bruise was nasty...he was giving me strikes that were set up for nerve strikes...but I was 11.

We do nerve shots as a way to set up our kill shots or locks. You have to dig hard and deep...crushing the nerve against the bone..then follow up with in the same beat almost. hand speed, power (body mechanics) and ACCURACY are important.

Also we always train as if the person is armed with a blade (that how it always was) so nerve hitting becomes almost mandatory (remember striking the eyes is also a nerve shot).

I could see how people can get discouraged with mastering nerve shots especially with all the availabilty of boxing, thai boxing and NHB training.

I myself have used nerve attacks pretty successfully (when I decide to use then and executed them perfectly) against bladed attacks...but Atienza Kali is all I know and all I have ever trained and used.

Nice question!

[RapidAssault16]

Wow, thanks Guro Carl...I actually came by your class in Woodbridge about 8 months ago. I would've continued to train with you but I couldn't find the financial means. I pray that I can train under you in the future. I love what you and your brothers teach and as soon as I find the means to train under you I will.

Happy Training!

[haumana2000]

Pekiti uses the gunting, primarily the Vertical/elbow to the fist. Which is common across most of the systems. as to your questions, if anyone has used it, of course. Growing up, and at every possible opportunity (due to the people i hung around with mostly) but the question is what is FMA empty hands? well in the truest sense of the word anything that works. my "pet technique" was always a bisig (forearm) shear on the right side of the neck (he's in a orthodox lead) with my right and a knee to the inside of his right leg. almost always had a good success rate of dropping him. If he didn't than I would sweep/or kick the foot out to finish putting him on the ground. Is that a gunting? if a gunting is the destruction of a limb then yes, if you are talking about whether it will look like de cadena or something than probably not...

[kruzada]

"However, have any civilians used the FMA's in a real confrontation? I'm also curious about the empty hand tactics."

No one has to doubt the effectivity of FMA empty hands, as I'm sure that there are many practitioners out there with real life experience that just don't choose to share their stories with us, as they might be self incriminating, just as Guro Carl has personally pointed out in another thread.

Some MA practitioners think that Filipinos can't fight without their weapons, but many students that were with me for only a very limited time (1 to 3 months), and some that are instructors have had to use their FMA empty hand skills in real situations

My cousin recently disarmed someone that pulled out a knife on him at a party in his own house. And he did so after having quite a few drinks.

Another student of mine was in the process of being mugged on a subway in Boston, and knocked out the guy, who was tugging on his gold chain, in less than 2 seconds with a redonda empty hand application.

A female student of mine was assaulted on the street and pulled off a dumog offbalancing technique and knocked him down with a backhand to the jaw.

A friend of mine used some lowline kicks that I taught him to put down a guy who tried to blind side him on the street, with 4 friends of his coming to join in.

Also one of our Black Belts was in a fight in the P.I. (back to back with his cousins), 12 against 20+ with weapons, and he survived unscathed.

Incidentally, one of our Brown Belts had to put down a Muay Thai practioner that said that FMA people couldn't fight without their weapons, then attacked him in front of his students. The fight didn't last more than 4 seconds.

-Just some more entertaining stories to add to the thread.

[old skool dude]

Fma in real world

I am a pikiti tirsha practitioner having trained with Tom Bisio's group under Ralph Hamrick back in the early 80's... I also had the great honor of training very briefly with Carl Atienza while he was a student at Hunter College in NYC. Even then, it was apparent to me that Carl had real talent and would become the shooting star that he is today.

I personallly didnt know that the empty hands of pikiti tirsha was different! I'd love to hear from another perspective what the difference is!

Anyway, I recall a time in the subway where was going to work and a gang of thugs were sitting on the stairs leading into the station, as I passed by one tried to kick me in the head and i zoned out ot the way and hit his foot pretty hard with my block. The whole group came running downstairs where I was, I backed against a wall so they couldnt surround me , and positioned myself in such a way that only one or two attackers could come at me at time. This one guy who had his shirt off came to me and threw a fake, I didnt react because he was out of range, so he came in closer and tried to hook me to the head. I zoned out the way and hit his arms with a picture perfect gunt and slapped him hard on the chest with my open hand. all you could hear was the LOUD SLAP SLAP!!! sound that echoed in the station and sounded like a gunshot. The guy jumped back rubbing his arm and chest, and actually started jumping up and down saying that "id better not come back tomorrow!" and that he was going to get his gun! Incidently, none of his fellow gang bangers jumped in. At that moment the train came, a cop got off, and I got on and went to work.

[Rich Parsons]

I believe and have used Arnis in real life situations.

study it and practice it and then you will be able to use it

[shootodog]

theoretically speaking, if you look at the base movements of your hands with the bastons, those are the same movements you can utilise with the empty hands. just modify them to be able to use your forearms in place of the bastons. adjust also the range to the knife range (medio to corto).

technically speaking, there are several fma styles of empty hands like mano mano, kadena de mano, panuntukan, dumog, panggamut, boltong, sikaran, etc. that may or may not be part of the curiculuum of an fma system. most fma systems and methodologies are suppose to be complete in all ranges and all fights (baston, bolo, knife, empty hands striking, and ground work). since there are quite a few fma systems (several hundred), it would be hard to define what goes into it. example: pikit tirsia kali's empty hands includes striking and groundwork and has a strong weapons base.

there are a few fma systems that deal excusively with empty hands applications as well (like mongoose, yaw yan, sari-an, etc.).

[two sword]

Hey "old skool dude"!

I remember you... those were the days huh? That was a big developement stage for me (early 90's). Training is not that crazy anymore...we want students to stay these days.

I remember that fight you had back then...

Talk to you soon brother!

[old skool dude]

Yo Carl!!

Yo Carl, YOU KNOW WHO THIS IS!!! (Even thought I aint giving my name!!! heh, heh!!)
I remember this CRAZY demo you gave when you and one of your students were doing the "break in break out" drill with LIVE MACHETES!!! When I saw THAT!! I said to myself, NOW THIS GUY IS DEFINITELY DOING THE RRRRRREEEEAAAALLLL STUFF!!!!
It totally changed the way that I personally looked at practicing, and I was proud to be part of the Pikiti Tirsha tradition! What I also dug about you and your crew is the way you accepted me, a non filipino, into your martial arts family just because I was a practitioner of Pikiti Tirsha. I always thought that was so cool of you guys, and of course I was overjoyed about your success.
Hope to catch up with you some time in the future.
Keep swinging!!!
P.s. For all you FMA's Listening, Carl and his group were practicing ground fighting, and standup grappling YEARS before the UFC hit the usa, that's ALL Im gonna say about that!

[old skool dude]

Fma in real world

I once worked with a student for 3 months and drilled him on a low line FMA kick taught to me by BIll Mcgrath in the Pikiti Tirsha system. The guy got into a comfrontation with a mugger and when the guy tried to reach into his waist for his piece, he let the kick fly into his leg. According to another eye witness who was with him, the dude flew into a pile of garbage where he STAYED until my student and his friend left.
My student mentioned he was so excited he didnt know what to do!! and was surprised that it worked SO EFFECTIVELY
A Co Worker of mine with no previous martial arts training prior to what I showed him, was able to use principles of zoning,redirecting and locking techniques to disarm a live gunman in the subway. This story was confirmed by the Desk sargent of the place we worked (I was a 911 operator at the time) where he handed in the gun. ( He was mugged on his way to work)
SO... YEAH THE FMA DOES WORK IN REAL LIFE!!! IT AINT JUST ABOUT " SWINGING STICKS!!"

[manofleisure]

FMA Empty Hands Question...

what style,or drills does Pekita Tersia use for its empty hand techniques?

I have seen some Cadena de mano work and it looks very good.Does PTK approach empty hands a diffrent way?I know they use some Hubad first hand but was wondering about striking,destruction, speed and technique drills like Cadena de mano.

[salami]

doesn't everything work, depending on the build of your opponent and how many times you have practiced it?

[danjuandesiga]

Empty hand FMA for bouncers

I have a job at nights as a nightclub bouncer. I have found the use of empty-hand FMA(panantukan, sikaran, dumog, etc.) to be very helpful in dispatching perpetrators. In most states, we are not allowed to hit to the head/face area with a closed fist so we have to modify our methods accordingly. I usually utilize the dumog skills I trained in for the most part when it came to breaking up fights or to simply control an aggressor.

I've even slammed palm heel strikes to the chin to knock a guy out if I was dealing with more than one perp. Quick finger jabs to the eye(s) make awesome set-ups for other methods when it came to dealing with aggresors.
Heavy slaps across the face, body, ear, nuts, etc are also one of the most effective to add to your "toolbox".

Thw wonderful thing about practicing Kali with weapons is that it truly trains and develops a practitioner's unarmed combat skills as if on automatic pilot. Before you know it, you might be surprised to find that you've landed up to 6 to 12 hits in quick succession on an aggressor and you never had to learn the Parker Kenpo system to do that.

[EmptyneSs]

i dont train in fma, so i was wondering what some of you meant by "zoning". what is this concept?