empty hand against weapons

[cfr]

Ive got just a wee bit of fma training under my belt and I ve always wondered, would this stuff really work? Has anyone done any empty hands against a weapon at full speed that was totally unscripted? How'd it turn out? Either in training or on the street.

[tomek]

Yes, I've done some of these things on the street.
Also weapon against weapon.
Also weapon against unarmed opponent .
Without weapon training don't try to defend from it.

[cfr]

OK let me assure everyone that my goal here isnt to offend anyone but to inform newbies like me. Of the 261 views to this post, there has been 1 reply thus far. How do we know this stuff works with stats like that? Again, I dont want to step on any toes, but now Im wondering even more, "does this stuff work"?

[HtTKar]

What is a wee bit?

If it didnt work, it wouldnt still be around. At some point in your life you may have no other choice than to fight emptyhanded against someone with a weapon. Is there anything you are doing right now that prepares you for that? No? Then training against it will help you out. Anybody familiar with weapons knows how they move, and what can be done with that weapon. This is a great advantage against those with no training. And if you can take their weapon away from them, you can show them how to use it properly

[Tant01]

Ive got just a wee bit of fma training under my belt and I ve always wondered, would this stuff really work? Has anyone done any empty hands against a weapon at full speed that was totally unscripted? How'd it turn out? Either in training or on the street.

No one here can answer that question for you. The question is can you make what you know work against an armed attacker? If you think you can you might be right. I don't know what you've been taught about knife defense but the general idea is not bleeding out before you escape or eliminate the threat. Much depends on the intent (mindset) of your attacker. Threat, show of force or ambush assassination? ya know? Put yourself in the other guys shoes... you could hurt somone easily with a knife or shank without much training at all. My first encounter against a blade was before any training and of course, I was unarmed. First blood came years later while training... "Navy" Judo Injuries to your hands and arms are common against any blade. Prepare to bleed if you go with "live" steel.

[cfr]

What is a wee bit?

14 months of Muay Thai, JKD, and FMA.

[bbbb]

keenly_

interested!!

[cfr]

interested!!

Was that meant for me? What do you mean?

[bodhisattva]

"Yes, I've done some of these things on the street.
Also weapon against weapon.
Also weapon against unarmed opponent .
Without weapon training don't try to defend from it."

Look man, if you encounter some guy with a weapon, don't be a freaking moron. Get out of there.

Fighting a REAL man with a REAL knife who is REALLY determined is nothing like training.

When a man has a knife, and you don't, you will have to face his confidence. People in martial arts think "confidence" will get their opponent killed. It won't. OVER confidence gets people killed. Unfortunately, the level of confidence an angry man has when he has a knife (and you don't) probably won't be OVER confidence. It will be right on the money.

I've trained stickfighting under circumstances that caused a great deal of pain to both parties.. It wasn't full contact, but it wasn't far off. It left horrible bruises all over us, broke a few fingers..etc..

And what we found, after a couple of years of meeting up like this, is that we don't want any part of some angry guy with a weapon. He has the advantage. And its best to leave him with that advantage, preferably at a speed of 55 mph.

Everytime that knife hits you, it's going to leave a big ugly vagina on your flesh. And that thing is going to bleed and weep. And you will look at yourself, and think "SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT" instead of "OK, now sweep him, grab him in a ninja claw, and defang his snake, etc."

No. You'll just be thinking SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT Why are my intestines tripping up my feet they are supposed to be in my belly..SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT..I'm going to miss my family... SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT..

[cfr]

Look man, if you encounter some guy with a weapon, don't be a freaking moron. Get out of there.

The theory of being able to always flee is a great one. One that I would always choose if possible. "If" is a big word though. It may not always be an option.

[bodhisattva]

I'm sure it isn't always an option. I really don't know, I've never had to deal with it.

But I'm certain running often BECOMES an option, at some point..

Maybe you can't run at first. That's fine. But if he starts stabbing you and you have to defend - be looking for the opportunity to do your best olympic sprinter imitation..look for holes in the environment: go through the dumpster, run on top of parked cars to get away..whatever..

Use your skills to create an opening for running. Odds are he's not real aware of his environment. You can use that. Odds are he's very focused on his weapon. You can use that. Odds are you're going to become a pile of hamburger, regardless of what you do, and yes, you can use that to your benefit to..because it informs you how serious things really are, and it's good to be very aware of that fact when things really are very serious.

DON'T listen to people who talk about facing off in the street, bat vs. knife, or something ridiculous like that. Odds are: it's all lies - especially if he's passing out the information with a cavalier attitude "I done that afore!" Even if the guy is telling the truth, he's probably no one to imitate in life.

Try to live in a way that keeps you around and useful for those whom you love in life. People who talk about knife dueling in the street aren't on that particular plan, I don't think.

[Joe Hubbard]

Ahhh…empty hand vs. weapons, an interesting subject with a matrix of opinions- some worthy and some unworthy. Let’s explore some possibilities:
· You often hear that you can’t defend against a weapon and your only chance is running.
· Turning and running is probably the highest ratio that will get you killed. Time and time again criminal statistics prove that it is very easy to chase someone down when they turn and run.
· What’s the scenario: are you alone in a park? Are you with your three kids who are all under 10 years old in a crowed restaurant? Are you in a foreign country? Everything is situational and you must recreate these scenarios in your training environment.
· Militaries of the world would have you performing an orderly retreat in order to escape safely. There may be a break point where you can turn and run, but only when it is safe enough and guess the news? You may have to stay and fight in order to create an opportunity for an escape.
· When it comes time to react and fight against someone who is wielding a weapon, you must move in and close the gap. This is where you minimize your opponent’s skill. This is the problem when you hear knife defence. A defensive mindset often has you moving backwards.
· If you are forced to fight, use everything in your environment that you can. Walls are one of my favourites. Start training to gain access to improvised weapons.
· Also, most people create an image of having to fight a super hero on acid or Dan Inosanto. Most people you will come across don’t train, are drugged or drunk with dulled senses and are basically average people. Please train for overkill, but realise what you are most likely to face.
· Many weapon attacks are static presentations to get what they want from you. These are easier than you think to counter.
· Weapon deployment is also an issue. Very few people walk down the street wielding a samurai sword. We have early, mid and late phase counters to the draw. Only a few weeks ago I web hand striked a guy who tried to pull a full bottle of red wine out of his back pocket and hit me with it. The minute I saw his intention to draw I moved in with a powerful web hand strike in the throat and disarmed the bottle from him. Fortunately for me that was all it took to finish the fight.

Hopefully awareness and avoidance plays a big role in your self-protection when it comes to going up against someone with a weapon empty handed. However, you do need a game plan if you find yourself in a sticky situation.

Take care and stay safe

Joe

[cfr]

I agree Joe. Seems to me that the whole "run away" concept is one to be used at all times, not just against a weapon. I would always try to avoid a fight and dont care what anyone thinks about it. An unarmed opponent can quickly become an armed one, a single opponent can quickly become multiple, etc. The purpose of training/ preparing/ this thread is for when it absolutely cant be avoided. Environment, no openings, family present, etc. If the only solution is to run, then shouldnt all MA's that train for this scenario just not bother? This would probably go for the Military as well.

[bodhisattva]

Actually, we do all train for that situation : we all do some kind of roadwork/interval training/cycling training, right?

Running can give you the chance to find a position of superiority from which to fight. Running can also tire the shit out of your attacker if he's not in shape.

"but only when it is safe enough and guess the news? You may have to stay and fight in order to create an opportunity for an escape"

Why would you assume I meant anything else?

A man MAY get stabbed in the back for turning and running, like a complete moron..think about the mindset "This guy has a knife..so I'lll.....turn around backwards in stabbing range!" You're right. That's kind of funny.

But if this guy is capable of confronting a knife wielding attacker, and possibly living (not to mention winning).. Then he can also fight well enough to create an opening for escape.

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off topic: Forget superheros. I want to hang with Inosanto on acid. That would be a *TIME* baby!

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But I agree with most all of your points. Improvised weapons. Close the gap. Using walls. All true to my never-fought-a-guy-with-a-knife mind.

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[cfr]

Why would you assume I meant anything else?

Let me start answering this be assuring you that I agree with you 100%. I would always run if possible. Let me also say that my response is in no way meant to sound rude or offensive, although Im sure it will come out that way and I apologize in advance.

I am a never-fought-a-guy-with-a-knife guy and hopefully always will be.

I assumed that because IMO 90% of you're answer indicates that running is where its at. That to train defense against a knife is a waste of time.

Now let me state for the record: This is my perception. I could be wrong. Maybe Im misreading.

But *IF* Im correct in what Im saying, then I should give up these types of training methods and instead train in "running on tops of cars", or "looking for an opening". If I wanted to learn that sort of thing, Id post my question to a runners forum instead of an MA forum.

Again, I agree with you 100%. But my purpose in training is to learn what to do when I cant escape, not to train in escaping itself.