Grabbing the stick/Pekiti Tirsia slaps

[RapidAssault16]

Hey guys. I just came back from the Philippines. Sadly, all the Arnis schools in my area closed down :-(, so I had to resort to training with some local Arnis books I picked up over there. One of the books I got was Remy Presas' original book on Modern Arnis, written in Tagalog. In the book, he illustrates nearly all the counters as block the stick/then grab the stick/then counterstrike. However, I've been told in the past that grabbing the stick is bad, because it develops bad habits (like grabbing the blade instinctively, for example). Just wondering what anyone else thought about this.

Second topic I'd like to address regards the use and training methods regarding Pekiti Tirsia slaps. I've been searching for hand strikes to add to my Western Combatives arsenal (i.e. chin jab, tiger claw, axe hand, etc) as alternatives to the much-too-overated punch. How exactly are these used? I saw an article on Pekiti-tirsia.net regarding the slaps but there are virtually no demonstrative pics, although there is one video regarding the combination of slaps, knees, head butts, and elbows. Any other info regarding this would be cool. Thanks

[Keeper]

Regarding the first thing you mentioned (grabbing the stick) this is what is generaly referred to as 'trapping'. It can be applied to empty hand and knife-to-knife.
What you see in the book really comes from drills, and I doubt you'll ever see anybody pull-off that kind of move in a real situation. I mean, you throw a full-force punch at somebody and see if they can slap-trap that hand before it reaches their face. Despite this, many traditional schools still make this technique their main way of dealing with any kind of strike whether it be hand, stick or blade. I was being taught that stuff thru-out my training in the Philippines.

I'm not saying that trapping doesn't work. I'm just saying it dosen't look like the way Grandmaster Remy depicts it in the book (by the way, the man was a true warrior and won real battles, i'm just talking about the book). The truth is this... when somebody is flailing a stick or knife or even boxing into you with fists, the chances of your eyes picking up on an opening and your hand moving quick enough to grab the arm/stick are slim to none.
'Trappers' or people who over-train trapping will generaly back-peddle when attacked because they are looking for that perfect moment to slap and trap the attacking arm. Practice this at full speed and you'll see how many times the Trapper takes hits.
So, back to what the 'truth' is... you gotta move forward and NOT try looking for an arm or hand to grab hold of. You won't find it. You move into the attacker like lightning and just get so close up that his own arms are pinned against his body. THEN you can grab the arms or wrap your own arms around his. Man, even just lunge in and bear hug him.
You might take one or maybe two hits max on the way in... But it's better than taking 10 hits while trying to catch the guys arm.

Real trapping, man, is called GRAPPLING.

Keeper

[SamTheMan]

It depends what you are using and how you are using it, kinda. I could be wrong but many of the "grabbing" manouvers I get the idea you are talking about are applied after you have blocked their initial strike - like if the guy comes in with a No 1 strike (12 steps ) then you would use YOUR stick to block the fastest area of theirs, while stepping in and "grabbing" their hand - to stop them recovering. You would have to be VERY fast, if u've been in a suit then you will know how fast those blows come at you - still i have been disarmed so. Hmmm.

[bodhisattva]

Nah, guys. Grabbing the stick happens all of the time. It is instinctive. Buy the Dog Brothers Real Stick Fighting tapes and watch.

It isn't a samurai movie type move. It's just an instinctive reaction. One place that it happens is if you have a guy that pauses slightly between bursts of attacking you viciously. It's natural to quickly reach out and snatch his stick tip in your hand when he recovers to a guard position momentarily. Then you beat the snot out of him with your stick while keeping his.

The Dog Brothers find this to be the NUMBER ONE disarm when fighting real men with real sticks with real contact. None of the "defang" moves. Simply reach and snatch the stick and beat him to death til he lets go.

Just about anytime your opponent stops moving his stick he is taking a chance at your grabbing it. All of this quits being theory and start becoming painful, risk-taking reality when someone is beating you with a real stick.

As far as "bad habits, catching the blade".. don't even worry about that, brother. A) You just AREN'T going to be fighting any swordsmen in your life..you just AREN'T.. B) if you are someday, somehow fighting a swordsman, you probably don't have a sword, and grabbing the blade would be a great thing for you to do in your defense - you'll probably die anyway C) When fighting with sticks, fight as if you have a stick. Don't try to treat sticks as swords.

Just my advice.

[SamTheMan]

Well it is a stick art- and you are right about the instinct thing, the amount of time i have disarmed someone by "binding" their stick in my armpit just by instinct is pretty big, but i thougth you were supposed to resist the temptation to keep your hand out in order to grab their stick - i did once and my hand got MASHED.

Grabbing and beating is definatley an accepted tactic.

[Reikon]

Well it is a stick art- and you are right about the instinct thing, the amount of time i have disarmed someone by "binding" their stick in my armpit just by instinct is pretty big, but i thougth you were supposed to resist the temptation to keep your hand out in order to grab their stick - i did once and my hand got MASHED.

Grabbing and beating is definatley an accepted tactic.

I think it's supposed to be more of a block then grab, then wipe with the space between the puño and your hand or start swinging. You try to grab it in full contact, I can only assume someone got their hand beaten and broken badly.

as for slaps...are you talking about slapping as a strike, or slapping the shoulder as you're flowing?

[bodhisattva]

SAMtheman: "but i thougth you were supposed to resist the temptation to keep your hand out in order to grab their stick"

You definitely don't want to leave your hand out - that's not the way.
People make mistakes - they leave their stick out too long - they are off balance and not thinking about their stick - they get smashed in the head by YOUR stick and are totally stunned - they try to close the gap and louse it up - etc. -- IF that happens, you capitalize on it. It is quick and without thought. Like someone threw a ball at your face at medium speed: "BALL!" - GRAB. "STICK!" - GRAB.

Or, you may just wake up and find everything in the world is a swinging stick - and you can't do much about it - so your animal brain blindly and quickly grabs the stick. Since he is already beating you and causing you much pain, their is no "risk" to grabbing his stick. It is an answer to an immediate, painful problem that cannot be ignored. If you don't grab the stick - you get smacked more. If you do grab the stick - the smacking stops. Context is everything.

Reikon: "I think it's supposed to be more of a block then grab, then wipe with the space between the puño and your hand or start swinging. You try to grab it in full contact, I can only assume someone got their hand beaten and broken badly."

I hear people say "block then grab", and I learned it when I was doing kali - but I have never found it to work that way in a real fight. It CAN help for crashing through the space into clinch range - however. I've just NEVER scored a GRAB using it in a real stickfight. My experience is EXACTLY as 'Keeper' says above - everything he typed. Real trapping is called grappling - fighting in the clinch.

[Reikon]

Reikon: "I think it's supposed to be more of a block then grab, then wipe with the space between the puño and your hand or start swinging. You try to grab it in full contact, I can only assume someone got their hand beaten and broken badly."

I hear people say "block then grab", and I learned it when I was doing kali - but I have never found it to work that way in a real fight. It CAN help for crashing through the space into clinch range - however. I've just NEVER scored a GRAB using it in a real stickfight. My experience is EXACTLY as 'Keeper' says above - everything he typed. Real trapping is called grappling - fighting in the clinch.

Thats actually kind of what I was talking about...I was thinking more of a close quarters stick grappling situation rather than kind of picking at each other from 6 feet apart Blocking and then trying to grab from that distance will get you hit like 10 times...lol

[SamTheMan]

well yeah someone did get their hand bashed - me. I learned my lesson!

you are right its a "muscle memory" or "reptilian brain" thing, its a threat so you take action, however, you can incorporate a block into that, right. especially in close quaters, you are likely to get locked anyway.

[RapidAssault16]

I'm talkin about the slaps as a strike.

[Keeper]

Refering to the "grabbing the stick and beating them til they let go" thing seen in the DB movies - you'll notice that only happens when the 'grabber' has moved in and closed the gap real fast.
They never look for the right moment to grab and use they lightning reflex to catch it, it just kinda instinctively happens at very close range.

The reason I mention this is because it's this naturaly/accidental way that stick-grabbing happens that makes it different from what Grandmaster Remy and his brother (my GM) depict in a lot of their books.

Just wanted to point that out - deliberate (traditional) and accidental (modern full contact) - there's quite a difference

[William]

*RapidAssult16: I'm talkin about the slaps as a strike.

Simple explanation: In Pekiti-Tirsia, the open hand is referred to as knife hand/hand knife. Angles and delivery are similar to how the blade is delivered with slight modification for open hand striking.

Refering to the "grabbing the stick and beating them til they let go" thing seen in the DB movies - you'll notice that only happens when the 'grabber' has moved in and closed the gap real fast.
They never look for the right moment to grab and use they lightning reflex to catch it, it just kinda instinctively happens at very close range.

It usually happens as they bridge from long to close range. In the vid brought up, Top Dog gets many of them from under the roof block as he deflects the weapon and bridges inside.

The reason I mention this is because it's this naturaly/accidental way that stick-grabbing happens that makes it different from what Grandmaster Remy and his brother (my GM) depict in a lot of their books. Just wanted to point that out - deliberate (traditional) and accidental (modern full contact) - there's quite a difference

You touched on it better in your previous statement. There is generally nothing "accidental" about it. It wasn't planned, but the result is not accidental. Being able to control/strip the weapon usually happens in transition and is not a planned maneuver. Meaning the person didn't necessarily plan to strip it, the situation placed the weapon in a position to be taken advantage of. It's an ingrained/trained reflex triggered by touch, positioning, and energy. For example, any time I can touch my opponents weapon arm with my live hand, the percentage is high that I can strip/grab the weapon or weapon hand (referring to impact weaponry). It usually happens in close range, or bridging from long range to close range. It's an ingrained reaction/reflex triggered by a number of things. I don't look for it, but if I feel/sense it in the heat of the moment, I will take it. In order to feel it, I have to be able to recognize it. In order to recognize it, I will have had to have trained it. It happens in a fraction of a second but I reflexively know it's there. Nothing accidental about that.

William

[Keeper]

William,

Thanks, that's a better way off explaining it. I guess I didn't describe it properly (but you know I got a B in English) The trap or stripping of the weapon isn't accidental, but the way it came about wasn't planned. It is oportunistic in nature...

Keeper

[MasterKaliSilat]

Those slaps, are as we say, tapi-tapi, the emphasis is on the power, tap him to the wall. The second point is that grabbing the blade, sadly enough, people in the real world will grab the blade, especially if they have been cut. After working with many, now raking players in Peititi Tirsia, they brought out the history books in Germany of many swordfihters with the truth of survival. You will grab that blade to stop from getting killed. How you have to do it, is a nother matter of practice, when you need to do it, it has to work on it's own merit.

After all the reall skill in all martial arts is how to stop your opponent, no matter what you use! So, go to a knife fight, bring a gun.

regards Greg

[MAMike]

After all the reall skill in all martial arts is how to stop your opponent, no matter what you use! So, go to a knife fight, bring a gun.

regards Greg

HARHAR


See you soon, Mike