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  • #31
    http://www.geocities.com/jkdinstruct...eo%201/...hope I got it right this time......

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    • #32
      PC illiterate

      Originally posted by RapidAssault16
      Hey, could you post some other site addresses? I'd really appreciate that. Thanks.
      I suck on the PC...f*** it I'm goin to bed ...sorry bro...just can't seem ta get all the sites down on 1 post

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      • #34
        Good Lookin Out...

        Yeah,I guess that is ptetty funny...anyways,thanks for posting up the sites...I can probably put together a computer quicker than I can type,let alone other....

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        • #35
          Originally posted by bahotae
          Saying that Filipino martial arts have no western influence whatsoever is a total lie.
          Why do Arnis techniques have Spanish names then?
          In turn, when boxers use the word 'punch' - an english word, does that mean a punch did not exist until the english named it?

          There's Filipino terms for just about anything, and just because some Arnis terms have Spanish influences, it does not mean it came from Spain.
          Following that logic, where are the Spanish stick fighting schools?

          It has more to do with the Spanish influencing the language when they colonized parts of the islands. There's a whole book about the history of Spanish language on the Filipino mindset.

          I will attempt to explain the use of Castilian/Spanish language in the 1600's. Much of the material below was research by Vincente Rafael Ph. D. in SE Asian History from Cornell University and professor of History at the University of Hawaii.

          What Vincente wrote about concerned the mindset of the Filipinos - primarily the Tagals who were at the epicenter of Spanish occupied territories. The Tagals had to learn to adapt to the colonizers, no problem for them as Filipinos were/are exceptional at appropriating any culture's they wished to adapt into their own. However, Filipinos add previous influences to whatever they appropriate- it will always have a certain Filipino flair or flavor. Take Western boxing and the Filipino introduction of FMA style footwork, limb checking and the 'bolo' punch- still used today with devastating results.

          Vincente listed Spanish accounts of how the Tagals easily assimilated the manner of dress, and even their written alphabet. A script that is so different from their own native script (Alibata). The only thing that separated the Indio from the Castilian was their speech.

          Tagals who were unarmed (talking about firearms and a united militia) and under Spanish occupation lived in constant fear when a Spaniard who had the power to shoot them on the spot would approach them. Externally, Tagals could be dressed exactly like a Spaniard was dressed- but within them was an uncertainty; they were disguised as Spaniards, but they could not understand what the Castilian was trying to say. They did not know if they were being mocked, or put to death.


          In 1610 a Tagal printer named Tomas Pinpin devised a way to alleviate the shock of the Castilian. In hopes that his people would understand the Spaniard from the INSIDE, expose and take away their secret alien speech. He printed the first book of translation and lesson for the Tagal reader. Pinpin believed that to be able to engage in a linguistic exchange with the Spanish is to take away the fear. They could better gauge Spanish intentions. Vincente wrote, " Tagalogs such as Pinpin would thus have at their disposal a way to inoculate themselves against the larger shock of conquest." The Filipino immunization from within began and through time the Tagals were now in control of their own secret language. They knew the enemy's thoughts while the enemy was lulled into thinking they would stand to rule forever.
          Thus, when a Filipino references 'espada y daga' - it is of course in the Spanish mentality to assume they are speaking of the same thing- that all it's elements originate from their own, all it's methodology pure Castilian (what would their own conquerors the Moors say?).*
          Of course! And the Tagal smiles and walks on.

          The blade arts of the Filipinos were personal or family oriented; passed on by blood most of the time. So if you are looking for who taught whom- you won't see it in a book, nothing will be found before the early 1900's. It would be illogical to think that Filipinos would be placing their combat arts in written form especially when there were revolutions and intertribal rivalries going on. First that family or teacher would get attacked by the enemy living amongst them. Secondly, documentation was of no concern to them - survival was.

          I'm glad you mentioned Jose Rizal because my favorite quote from him is this one:

          "..awaken your consciousness of our past, already effaced from our memory, and to rectify what has been falsified and slandered."
          Jose Rizal, from his 1889 essay, ' To The Filipinos '

          --Rafael--

          Comment


          • #36
            Thanks...

            Originally posted by Sun_Helmet
            In turn, when boxers use the word 'punch' - an english word, does that mean a punch did not exist until the english named it?

            There's Filipino terms for just about anything, and just because some Arnis terms have Spanish influences, it does not mean it came from Spain.
            Following that logic, where are the Spanish stick fighting schools?

            It has more to do with the Spanish influencing the language when they colonized parts of the islands. There's a whole book about the history of Spanish language on the Filipino mindset.

            I will attempt to explain the use of Castilian/Spanish language in the 1600's. Much of the material below was research by Vincente Rafael Ph. D. in SE Asian History from Cornell University and professor of History at the University of Hawaii.

            What Vincente wrote about concerned the mindset of the Filipinos - primarily the Tagals who were at the epicenter of Spanish occupied territories. The Tagals had to learn to adapt to the colonizers, no problem for them as Filipinos were/are exceptional at appropriating any culture's they wished to adapt into their own. However, Filipinos add previous influences to whatever they appropriate- it will always have a certain Filipino flair or flavor. Take Western boxing and the Filipino introduction of FMA style footwork, limb checking and the 'bolo' punch- still used today with devastating results.

            Vincente listed Spanish accounts of how the Tagals easily assimilated the manner of dress, and even their written alphabet. A script that is so different from their own native script (Alibata). The only thing that separated the Indio from the Castilian was their speech.

            Tagals who were unarmed (talking about firearms and a united militia) and under Spanish occupation lived in constant fear when a Spaniard who had the power to shoot them on the spot would approach them. Externally, Tagals could be dressed exactly like a Spaniard was dressed- but within them was an uncertainty; they were disguised as Spaniards, but they could not understand what the Castilian was trying to say. They did not know if they were being mocked, or put to death.


            In 1610 a Tagal printer named Tomas Pinpin devised a way to alleviate the shock of the Castilian. In hopes that his people would understand the Spaniard from the INSIDE, expose and take away their secret alien speech. He printed the first book of translation and lesson for the Tagal reader. Pinpin believed that to be able to engage in a linguistic exchange with the Spanish is to take away the fear. They could better gauge Spanish intentions. Vincente wrote, " Tagalogs such as Pinpin would thus have at their disposal a way to inoculate themselves against the larger shock of conquest." The Filipino immunization from within began and through time the Tagals were now in control of their own secret language. They knew the enemy's thoughts while the enemy was lulled into thinking they would stand to rule forever.
            Thus, when a Filipino references 'espada y daga' - it is of course in the Spanish mentality to assume they are speaking of the same thing- that all it's elements originate from their own, all it's methodology pure Castilian (what would their own conquerors the Moors say?).*
            Of course! And the Tagal smiles and walks on.

            The blade arts of the Filipinos were personal or family oriented; passed on by blood most of the time. So if you are looking for who taught whom- you won't see it in a book, nothing will be found before the early 1900's. It would be illogical to think that Filipinos would be placing their combat arts in written form especially when there were revolutions and intertribal rivalries going on. First that family or teacher would get attacked by the enemy living amongst them. Secondly, documentation was of no concern to them - survival was.

            I'm glad you mentioned Jose Rizal because my favorite quote from him is this one:

            "..awaken your consciousness of our past, already effaced from our memory, and to rectify what has been falsified and slandered."
            Jose Rizal, from his 1889 essay, ' To The Filipinos '

            --Rafael--
            another lesson to be learned...for me that is.

            Comment


            • #37
              Hello, new member here, my first post,

              Concerning the filipino martial arts arnis with Spanish name. Well, Philippines was ruled by Spain for about 300 years, so the filipinos were taught spanish by the Spaniards. And it also depend on the region/province in the Philippines, some places call it escrima, others arnis or kali.

              For a good history of filipino martial arts, read the book "Filipino Martial Culture". It has the diffirent style of arnis and its founders and legendary instructors.

              It also mentioned sikaran arnis. Sikaran means kicking(including use of knee). Some of you might think that sikaran was developed from taekwondo or karate, but it wasn't. Sikaran was founded by farmers from a town called Baras in the Rizal province(the province i was born). Sikaran got recognition as a legitimate martial art from Japan and Korea. In 1957, Sikaran practitioners competed in Korea. After that event, the biakid(spinning hook kick) of Sikaran was added to taekwondo. During the 1950's and 60's, before sikaran was recognized by Japan and Korea as a martial art, it has to fall under the guise of a karate organization but one of the first individual champion in the First Asian Karate Championship in 1964 was a sikaran practitioner. Sikaran then became recognized as a martial art.

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              • #38
                Wrong post. Sorry/

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                • #39
                  Sorry wrong post. I forgot i replied on this topic already.

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                  • #40
                    Panantukan

                    You might want to check out some videos/dvd's from the late Ted Lucaylucay. He passed in 1996 but you can stil lget his videos. His father is the one credited with teaching Dan Inosanto Panantukan. I have an article on our website titled: "Ted Lucaylucay's final interview" and it goes into this and how the art came about.

                    Comment


                    • #41
                      Why you won't find panantukan in the Philippines

                      The reason you won't find Panantukan in the Philippines is because it is a creation of Lucky Lucaylucay. From Ted Lucaylucay last interview:

                      IKF: Why is your dad known as the father of panantucan and pananjacman?

                      TL: He was coined that because nobody was really teaching those arts. In the old days at the Torrance Philippine Kali Academy, Dan used to bring in instructors but Dad used to come in and teach the boxing exercises and rekate them to the knife. Through his contribution, he was given this title. At the Philippine Kali Academy, the art was given birth through my dad.

                      In another article Guro Dan Inosanto stated that orginally they were going to refer to it a suntukan but they did not want it to be confused with Shotokan, hence Pananatukan. I have also heard him state this in a seminar and he also might state this on his "Definetive Collection" Video series.


                      In additon to the Pananatukan training (regular and seminar) I have received from various JKD instructors. I have had the following experiences with "Filipino Boxing":
                      1. As a student of Master Christopher Ricketts he has told me on several occassions "that boxing is boxing" and that what is sold as "Filipino Boxing" is basically just western "dirty" boxing. He has taught me arm wrenches, elbows, puches and holds I have also learned in Pananatukan.
                      2. I have seen Master Tony Deigo demonstrate what he described as "old style" Filipino boxing which he said included knees and elbows. He demonstrated elbow destructions against a fist, take downs and lock ups which I have learned or are similar to what I learned in Pananatukan.
                      3. I have read articles on Master Tanny Campo an ex-pro boxer where he describes his "pangamut" with its arm wrenching, limb control and off balancing as wells as traning techniques that look similar to ones learned in Panantukan.
                      4. I have had 2 "western" boxing trainers/coaches one in the Philippines and one in Canada. As well I have had the aquantance of several boxing coaches in Canada when my wife was competing. One difference between the Pinoy coach and the canadian coaches, with the filipino trainer he favoured the hooking punches as feints and as entries ( Bolo,hooks to the body and head, upper cuts, overhand). In the few fights I have seen Manny Pacquiao he also seems to favour hooking punchs. With the canadian coaches, straight punches were favoured (jab and straight/cross)
                        An example :
                        Canadian -when a hook was employed it was always done after a jab or jab-cross/straight. Your standard (L)Jab,(L)hook or (L)jab-(R)cross-(L)hook.

                        Filipino - although they would also do the above, he also favoured moving in with a left hook or a bolo punch to the body or head as the open shot. A typical entry might be:
                        - (L)Bolo (R)Overhand, or
                        - (L)Body Hook, (L) Head Hook, (R) Overhand or even
                        - (L)Upper cut, (L) Body Hook, (L) Head hook
                        It is also the hooks that let you get arm wrenches and limb controls.



                      So is there "Filipino Boxing" ? From my experiences I believe "Yes". Pananatukan is but the Lucky Lucaylucay method of Filipino boxing , but its not the name for all Filipino boxing, a mistake many western filipino martial artists make in particular JKD Kali practioners.

                      However, I also believe that in the Philippines that Filipino boxing and western boxing are so intertwined that it is impossible to say where one begins and the other ends. Hence when some in the Philippines says they are teaching you "western" boxing in invariably has some "filipino" boxing in it and visa versa.

                      Vince
                      aka Black Grass

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                      • #42
                        as a practicer of the filipeno martial arts my self western boxing and fiflpieno boxing are different,you know that from other posts,but in filipeno you have something called traps,and you set these up into two catagories,inside traps and out side trap,inside traps,when they go to throw a punch,you push one hand down and if they are a good martial artist they will block it and when they do that you take the arm they blocked with and grab it and put it over the arm you hit down first and since there arms are crossed they cant attack with there hands and then you can do what you going to do hit to the billy,face and so forth but you have to do them fast.and i havent really worked on the out side traps,so i cant say much.

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                        • #43
                          sry it is hard to explan.

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                          • #44
                            Originally posted by bjjp
                            as a practicer of the filipeno martial arts my self western boxing and fiflpieno boxing are different,you know that from other posts,but in filipeno you have something called traps....
                            Western boxing also has trapping many "old timers" still know how to do this.

                            Vince

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                            • #45
                              Traps in Boxing

                              You do have traps in "filipino boxing" but you also have traps in "western boxing" as well. Go back and check out some of the old fight footage of Jack Dempsey. He would do what people of that day called the "Dempsey Shuffle", this is where he would throw a big over hand right and crash in on the guy then take his left arm and jam it in on the guy trapping his right arm with his left forearm and trapping his left arm(bicep area) with his left hand then throw another short right to the guys head then trap with his right hand and throw a short left to the guys head. Worked very well he would also trap the guys foot while doing this.

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