Dog Brothers

[bdipab]

Okay what's the big deal with the dog brothers.

They fight with sticks and under circumstances where they could be hurt pretty severely. The reason they do so is to test out what works and what doesn't in a fight (plus knaus was a champion stickfighter wasn't he - thought I read that). What interests me is that's what our focus was in class, not just to learn a "cool" manuveur but one that works. This was one reason I wanted to train with the Dog Brothers, but can't get to where they're at so I wanted to know how good the videos are. Don't know how much these other groups place emphasis on footwork (atienza kali seems to focus on this too), angling in and out, but that is one of the things that I really needed more information on (in sparring I tend to go straight in and out). The other thing about the videos is that atleast they are pretty lengthy so one can hope for lengthy instruction and then shown that it works in a fight (practical application). (Really want to get Atienza Kali dvd, but $35 for a 34 minute dvd ).

With that said, no one should/would discount what one can learn from any one group just because they happen to favor or be currently training with another group. (Sorry I haven't heard of warrior's way - searched and not sure is that Sayoc Kali you're talking about then).

[m.artist]

Actually I'm interested in what m.artist has to share, was it private footage you viewed or someting comercially available? If it was the stickgrappling DVD would you mind doing a review? As for why the big deal about the dogbrothers, well there are other groups doing similar(or perhaps superior, I'll leave that to the individuals POV ) things, they havn't put out footage of it. Or in the case of Sayoc, havn't put out footage untill recently. I've bugged Pat O'malley a coulpe times through the forums about when we'll get to see some Black Eagle Society fight footage.

Note, I'm not trying to get anybody to buy anything lol
But at warriors way, we've worked with tuhon cortez, and tuhon chris sayoc, and tuhon tom, and they've put out some(not alot, because what they do in the videos is actually illegal, the fighting i mean) but you can find out about the videos here

http://sayoc.com/index.php?cPath=24&osCsid=131ed7fd102edec28ec5d49ff6c5ea11

man, i have to go, i will edit this post later to tell you about one of the videos we got to watch at warriors way, sorry

[Sun_Helmet]

I would recommend purchasing all the dvds that have been mentioned.

As an instructor in Sayoc Kali, I have seen or worked with many of the names mentioned on this thread. Some of the Dog Brothers are also students or affiliated with Sayoc Kali. Some of our Sayoc members have participated in the Dog Brother's gathering. The Atienzas are old friends of the Sayocs. We've cross trained with them and recommend our students to seek them out if they want to learn. It is all about learning - there's enough for everyone and if the system is solid, then there's no reason to keep students from cross training or seeking out further info. They all have something to offer. If you learn ONE move or concept from the dvds or tapes then it is already worthwhile IMO... because it will be something that you will retain, practice and keep improving on.

The more we support one another the better the art becomes.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

[EmptyneSs]

the dog brothers are cool, but getting severely injured while trainning sucks. getting bruises, black eyes, ocasional nose bleeds is one thing, but getting your knee cap split open by stick is extreme trauma to your body. with injuries like those, your arent gonna be able to train for months, years, or never again. not only that, the worst thing in terms of self defense is to be extremely injured. if you get severely injured, and have broken limbs or have crutches you are at an extreme disadvantage.

safety is number 1. u can train extremely hard, and still be safe. is it an ego thing?

[peopleschamp]

The more we support one another the better the art becomes.

Exactly, you can't get down on a group just because you happen to be training with one group - I for one would want to learn as much as I can from anyone who is a good instructor.

[m.artist]

I would recommend purchasing all the dvds that have been mentioned.

As an instructor in Sayoc Kali, I have seen or worked with many of the names mentioned on this thread. Some of the Dog Brothers are also students or affiliated with Sayoc Kali. Some of our Sayoc members have participated in the Dog Brother's gathering. The Atienzas are old friends of the Sayocs. We've cross trained with them and recommend our students to seek them out if they want to learn. It is all about learning - there's enough for everyone and if the system is solid, then there's no reason to keep students from cross training or seeking out further info. They all have something to offer. If you learn ONE move or concept from the dvds or tapes then it is already worthwhile IMO... because it will be something that you will retain, practice and keep improving on.

The more we support one another the better the art becomes.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

You're certified in Sayoc? Wow, there are only like 5 or 6 guys in the entire usa that are. Nice to meet you

[george stando]

Theres been a huge backlash or a growing backlash against the dog brothers in recent months in many forums and from actual peoples mouths. I dont know if that is directly at Marc Denny or what. The theory evolved from the way the pekiti guys like Top Dog sparred and worked its way into a more open lab which took in the things that were happening at the time, grappling and no holds barred. It was a test. And what I liked was integrating going against other weapons. Now ask me if I knew people in other parts of the world including thailand that were doing sparring full out with no gear way before this with sticks I would say yes. As I am sure other groups in various parts of the US and the world did as well. But I think In retrospect many people write themselves in backwards...yeah, we were doing it too. We had this and that. Thats where the commercial stuff comes in for selling and brainwashing, an integral part of selling martial arts in America. Its easy to go off someone's example and innovate off of it or expand, but for my money they helped open up certain aspects with their way of testing integrating outside elements to bolster and strengthen the filipino ma like with the burmese material and bjj. Alot of filipino ma might have been angered by this by saying everything was already there but for my money it wasnt. True later the system became more about marc denny and lesss about top dog and then suddenly this system of training, and ranks, and drills, and commercial non sense, theres I guess nothing wrong with that but the original materal is excellent whether you use it to spar dog brothers style or a way to functionally train. It uses the basic pekiti material which alot of styles do now and works other materal in quiet well. I recommend the dog brothers first series because there is alot of material to learn from, and its well executed and well performed.

[Sun_Helmet]

the dog brothers are cool, but getting severely injured while trainning sucks. getting bruises, black eyes, ocasional nose bleeds is one thing, but getting your knee cap split open by stick is extreme trauma to your body. with injuries like those, your arent gonna be able to train for months, years, or never again. not only that, the worst thing in terms of self defense is to be extremely injured. if you get severely injured, and have broken limbs or have crutches you are at an extreme disadvantage.

safety is number 1. u can train extremely hard, and still be safe. is it an ego thing?

Well, you do NOT have to do it. Someone else will do it and then you can learn from it. You can use safety equipment and looking back at evidence from these types of matches invalidates the movement you're trying to ingrain. That's what effective martial arts is grounded on... teaching what works.

Martial Arts based solely on theory... well, sooner or later someone will test it and find out if it does work.

I'm sure there's ego involved, that's human. However, I wouldn't factor it merely on that.

Prior to the UFC - remember all the folks who had creative theories, er 'answers' to a rear naked choke?

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

[Crucible]

Well stated.

[marex]

You're certified in Sayoc? Wow, there are only like 5 or 6 guys in the entire usa that are. Nice to meet you

Not only is Tuhon Rafael certified in Sayoc he is one of the top guys in Sayoc Kali. As he stated earlier, all of the DVDs mentioned are excellent. The Sayoc DVDs are top notch and are a must have in a martial artist's video/dvd collection. The Sama Sama dvds are an excellent value. The content in the dvds are awesome.

Rex Tacadena
CFO/Co-founder, SMAK-Stiks, LLC
SMAK-Stiks
Safe Martial Arts Kombat Stiks

[RYO9]

well first off it's the dog brothers, their videos kick ass. and I have seen a few of them and they are great! the only thing better is to train with Crafty, Salty and Top Dg themselves.

Mullins

[m.artist]

Though I haven't read the rest of these responses, I can tell you I remember when the original Dog Brothers series was brought to a little one room school in Springdale Arkansas. It was brought in by a guy by the name of Guro Harley Elmore, and the school then was called Island Warrior Fighting Arts. We started training that way immediately. Lots of us got hurt. Me and Guro Brad Garrison most of all, I think.

My point is that the Dog Brothers were the first at something. They may not have been the first to train that way, but they were the first to do so without regard to style, preference, weapon, or public acceptance. They made it open and okay to wonder if stuff really worked. Guro Elmore and the rest of the newer Warrior's Way family owes a lot to those experimental days, and without speaking for them, I imagine Guro Harley and the other seniors would tell you the same. No matter what level the training has evolved to today, the original question was posed by a rebel group in Hermosa Beach with the balls to bang on each other with sticks and minimal gear. I know I still carry a few bone spurs that I wouldn't have if it hadn't been for those same questions, and I never would have believed it wouldn't kill me unless I'd seen them do it first. Just trying to give credit where it is due.

With Respect,
Mike

Ya, I actually talked with Guro Harley about this very thing yesterday.
I told him that I actually meant not disrespect, and that I know I couldn't take any of them on.
But I do understand the significance of the things they've done as martial artists, and instructors. And I respect them for those things. And am happy people continue to learn and train with these guys.
Thank you for the info as well Mike. It's appreciated.

Not only is Tuhon Rafael certified in Sayoc he is one of the top guys in Sayoc Kali. As he stated earlier, all of the DVDs mentioned are excellent. The Sayoc DVDs are top notch and are a must have in a martial artist's video/dvd collection. The Sama Sama dvds are an excellent value. The content in the dvds are awesome.

Rex Tacadena
CFO/Co-founder, SMAK-Stiks, LLC
SMAK-Stiks
Safe Martial Arts Kombat Stiks

Well thank you for the information. Like I said, I was talking with Guro Harley yesterday, and he let me know that this guy is one of the best Sayoc guys out there. Thanks for the site too.

[EGstudent]

They have a new one coming out in july called Kali Tudo. They show how to use kali and silat methods for MMA fighting its pretty awesome.

[peopleschamp]

They have a new one coming out in july called Kali Tudo. They show how to use kali and silat methods for MMA fighting its pretty awesome.

Yeah, I just saw the trailer on their website. Looks very cool.

[Crafty Dog]

Woof All:

I recently (re) joined this forum and just now started skimming the back pages. Various items of interest to me in this thread, for now I will post this by Top Dog which addresses one of the themes in this thread:

http://dogbrothers.com/wrapper.php?file=bios_knaus.htm

I don't remember exactly when it was written, I would guess around 1996.

Woof,
Crafty Dog