interesting article on bali-song origin

[Sayoc Grappler]

[QUOTE=GonzoStyles if you want specifics I can give them but I dont need to name drop to polish my ego, anyone who knows Muay Thai knows Master Toddy and his reputation for producing American and European fighters of top caliber. . I am confident in my ability to hold my own with anyone who walks around on two feet and bleeds red.

So thats where I come from Bro, how about You?[/QUOTE]


Gonzo,
Don't take this the wrong way , but I didn't hear anyone challange you or your manhood . Chill out bro . Really there is no need for the aggro reactionary response ....

Frank

[GonzoStyles]

I said I was gonna quit this post but I never have been a quitter,

All I wanted to say is that MAYBE the Bali-Song came to the FMA
from another country, now I am now a heretic.

Seeing how there is NO PROOF other than oral tradition that the Bali Song
is of FMA origin

Hundreds of weapons from the FMA tradition reside in museums without a single BALI-SONG older than the ones manufactored in the early 1900's
by the honorable Perfecto DeLeon in Batangas.

I was asked to make an apology (see Tuhon Rafaels first post)
for thinking outside of tradition? well thats just who I am.

that initial reply help take this post down a path I never intended .

my wording might have been crude, but I NEVER attempted to discredit or disrespect FMA in any way.

[Sayoc Grappler]

I said I was gonna quit this post but I never have been a quitter,

All I wanted to say is that MAYBE the Bali-Song came to the FMA
from another country, now I am now a heretic.

Seeing how there is NO PROOF other than oral tradition that the Bali Song
is of FMA origin

Hundreds of weapons from the FMA tradition reside in museums without a single BALI-SONG older than the ones manufactored in the early 1900's
by the honorable Perfecto DeLeon in Batangas.

I was asked to make an apology (see Tuhon Rafaels first post)
for thinking outside of tradition? well thats just who I am.

that initial reply help take this post down a path I never intended .

my wording might have been crude, but I NEVER attempted to discredit or disrespect FMA in any way.

Somtimes when we are trying to make a point , we tend to act emotionally , especially when things heat up & are responses tend to take on an aggressive or defensive tone , but really it's no big deal , it's human nature . It's at that moment that the other person may be making there best points , but our emotion blinds us . The thread is good & I'm learning alot about history & human nature . Gonzo , I really don't think that Rafael was refering to you in his first post , but then , I am emotionally detatched . I mean no disrepect , I am just making some observations ....

Respects
Frank

[Sun_Helmet]

All I wanted to say is that MAYBE the Bali-Song came to the FMA
from another country, now I am now a heretic.

There's no one here directly disagreeing with the first part of your statement. I myself stated that everything is a THEORY. However, in the future I would hope to see that you recall THESE events accurately. No one called you a heretic or implied such.

All I did was supply you with a counter THEORY, so that people don't take one theory and suddenly run off with it as if it is true.

You know like the myth of the Toledo blade as the sole weapon utilized to defeat the Kris blade. Something I helped disprove with historical evidence awhile ago in other forums.

Seeing how there is NO PROOF other than oral tradition that the Bali Song is of FMA origin

However, you compare ORAL tradition versus American PHOTOGRAPHIC tradition. There is no PHOTOGRAPHIC tradition of ANY serviceman carrying or using a BALISONG at all. There's THOUSANDS of photos of Civil war vets and Spanish -Am vets standing proudly with their weapons. They have museums full of their weapons... No balisong! Unless they are from the Philippines!

Well, there's also LIVING martial proof that the balisong existed in the islands, because the weapon was actually USED. The people were documented by ALL accounts during that time to have used it until today.

On the essay you linked to, it states of an early 1900's American serviceman possibly bringing a balisong to the islands. That may well be true, but there's no evidence of Americans using the balisong prior to their arrival to the islands around that time. No one has a great grandfather, or grandpa that used a balisong in the States. Unless, you're of Filipino origin or unless Grandpa was stationed in the islands.

Isn't that a more significant evidence?

It's also documented that the French sent dispatchers to record the Filipino Revolution against Spain in the turn of century/early 1900's. (from French articles translated by Camagay). Now, we can say a French dispatcher may have brought the balisong, but there's no record of them saying so. In contrast, around this time, the balisong has already recorded Filipinos using it and continued to use it. Why? because there are now foreigners who begin to keep records of what Filipinos used. Filipinos themselves begin interacting with foreigners.

So the FRENCH were directly in the islands during the revolution and they don't say anything about how the islanders suddenly found their invention of use.

Those French were ASSIGNED to RECORD what was happening. They didn't even record this amazing transition of European weaponry into the indigenous populace.

Somewhere in this theory there is a missing link. A very crucial missing link.

You have the balisong supposedly coming from France into the islands via Spain (according to the balisong essay).. probable.. yes... but here's the missing link.

After that, the balisong suddenly DISAPPEARS in the annals of both Europe and the Americas? huh?

Suddenly this weapon was 'adopted' by Filipinos and now they begin to USE it while the rest of the world FORGETS it brought it to them? Europeans FORGOT that they have this fancy curiosity of VERY SIMPLE design?

They 'REdiscover' that they have it AFTER the Filipinos have come to the states or servicemen returned home with the balisong?

No one EVER mentions that significant transaction and cross cultural exchange in their PRINTED/PHOTO/ORAL traditions! In fact, there's evidence that the transaction took place the way FMAs have understood it.

That's like Henry Ford bringing the automobile to the Philippines and then suddenly the rest of the US decides to forget it's existence, until they see the car being driven in the streets of Manila. Oh yeah, fancy that... that was OUR invention and now they are like, DRIVING it. We thought it was a glorified metal stagecoach.

Why lay the burden on Filipinos to record something in a technology they did NOT have at the time? A practice they did not use? The Europeans and Americans could have easily mentioned this tranasction take place in the thousands of journals and photos archived.

Highly improbable.
Perhaps because this transaction happened the OTHER WAY AROUND.
All logic dictates it so, without any missing links.

Hundreds of weapons from the FMA tradition reside in museums without a single BALI-SONG older than the ones manufactored in the early 1900's by the honorable Perfecto DeLeon in Batangas.

Which actually discounts your proof to the contrary. There is NO balisong found in any European or American museum PRIOR to them coming to the islands. Which makes it more significant because the Europeans and Americans have the TRADITION OF CATALOGUING weapons!

They catalogued Filipino weapons all around the same time we see the balisong make it's appearance in the 1900's. The Filipinos never did that at this time. They were just tools of every day life. Survival tools.

No Filipino weapon OF ANY KIND was ever in ANY Museum until Europeans brought them back in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Why? Because Filipinos USED their weapons daily and were not a cataloguing, archiving culture.. they moved about and lived off the land.

That's the difference between TRIBAL mindsets and Non TRIBAL mindsets. Tribal mindsest only used what was needed and only kept items that they could use or barter with (like the enemy's head).

I was asked to make an apology (see Tuhon Rafaels first post)for thinking outside of tradition? well thats just who I am.

That indicates you actually wrote the balisong essay. I quoted the word 'Sorry' from the essay you linked. I found it quite facetious in the context it was written. I was not demanding an apology from YOU, because you did not indicate YOU wrote the essay.

Here's something outside of tradition:

Let's say the French, Americans or Spanish brought the balisong to the Philippines...

Where is the balisong in ALL the OTHER NATIONS these COUNTRIES ventured to around the same time?

Such a fancy weapon of simple design that automatically draws any spectator towards a skilled user... no one from any of these other countries were drawn to it?

Where is the balisong in the rest of Southeast Asia? Where is the balisong in South/Central Americas? There's no balisongs in Quebec? You don't even see a balisong pop up in Italy, Greece or Belgium
...

Sometimes thinking outside tradition requires making sure all the missing links are investigated.

my wording might have been crude, but I NEVER attempted to discredit or disrespect FMA in any way.

Understood.

--Rafael--

[george stando]

I'm glad to see this topic moving toward a more positive resolution. Great post with alot of valid points by Sun Helmet and one of the reasons I come on here to read things like that. Alot of stuff to chew on and alot of ideas for tackling subjects like this in other countries.

One side question(a little offtopic): Sun Helmet: Did you begin your FMA with the machete training? Several others showed how they actually started with the machete not the stick? Was your experience similar?

Thanks
George

[Sun_Helmet]

Sun Helmet: Did you begin your FMA with the machete training? Several others showed how they actually started with the machete not the stick? Was your experience similar?
George

It was simultaneous. I got a pair of rattan sticks which were about 1.5 - 2 inches thick and two machetes on the same day. We'd go from live blade, to stick and vice versa when we were doing weapons work. Doing live blade all the time would really tear up the blades so some of the drills were much easier on the wallet using the rattan.

Glad you found the other info productive!

--Rafael--

[george stando]

Dear Rafael,
Thank you for the information, thats exactly the type of training I was talking about. I am trying to do research on certain topics myself and doing research is difficult, I think the points you brought up helped me look at things from a myriad of angles and approaches. Thanks for that!
George