pekiti tirsia kali vs krabi krabong

[george stando]

Tee Sok:
I just dont get these people coming on the forums and thinking they are going to tell us like it is, like some of us here in the US dont already know or have known for a long, long time. I see what you say with De Cesarsis and now Valerio in Italy. It seems like a commercial thing which has nothing to do with truth and understanding. Both men dont have the body of knowledge and experience many of the other foreigners have no less fighting experience. Its too much for me to take some time. For those who find my posts a bit much, I apologize but if you see the whole problems here you will understand why. Its good in a way that it gets aired out because it saves people time and money which will go to waste following the false leads and propaganda. I'm sorry you had to go through it but now you can speak from experience which counts alot.

[William]

Tee Sok and George,

Nice replies. The posts in question certainly had the smell of ego stroking, politico-BS, and "my teacher is the only legitimate teacher thus I'm legit and your not" crud. It's really too bad to see this type of crud coming out in the Thai MA's. Up to this point my experience with my instructors and other people involved in Thai MA's was that they are very humble and don't really talk smack. Walk the walk and leave the talking to others. It's unfortunate but I think as the systems spread, we'll see more of this crap popping up.


William

[Tee Sok]

William,

unfortunately I do agree with you view. Like in Chinese MA (especially Wing Chun), politics and the 'my style/teacher is better than yours' nonsense seems to be spreading in Thai MA too. Ong Bak kinda started the rampant commercialization of Thai MA, if only you could see what's on Italian MA magazines....schools putting pictures of Ong Bak just to sell more, claiming to be the one and only direct successor of this and that...and I could go on with such examples.
Where is the respect in all this?
My teacher in Thailand sure knows a lot and has a long experience but I NEVER heard him talk nonsense, nor did I see him show off or claiming to be the one and only. The other teachers I have been introduced to also are just as humble and they only teach
I am aware that even in Thailand some teachers see farang as a good way to make money and to be 'more international', but there are teachers who 'walk the walk' as you said, and spend their energies to teach the arts and to train without trying to be the most popular.

[danjuandesiga]

Here's a video of a KK group doing a KK demo...

Krabi Krabong - Siam Yuth Center 2006

I found it by browsing through videos on youtube.com

[Tee Sok]

Yes it's a nice one. However they are just playing, showing techniques.
In the 3 vs. 1 the hits of the multiple attackers are delivered in a way that enables you to see them and to prepare a block/counter. It's like light sparring, a good way to learn how to move and hit.
I like the 1 vs. 3, it kinda shows how KK was effective in the battlefiedls with soldiers attacking from all sides.

[george stando]

The clip is just show. Its the maiin point I have been trying to make there is a difference between fighting techs and show. Most of it is show.

also i have to make an important statement here and that is Ajarn Thonglor is the real deal and a great master as i witnessed. So dont let the foreign student of his put a bad mark against him. He is a legend and Vincent Giordano will publish a full biography of him and his system in the near future for those who might want to know more.

[Tee Sok]

That's good to know. Do you know if it will be a part of his Vanishing Flame book or be a separate book? Thanks

[Ikka]

reply to George stando

Because you were that one that knows everything(I received your rude e-mail), I shall point out something now.
Vincent Giordano has studied under Ajarn Messamai Messomonta(I hope the name is spell correctly) like Tony Moore (whom is a very nice person) NOT under Ajarn Thonglor.
So you are proving that the "knowledge" that you have(and so kindly share with us) on this subject is almost none at all(probably you've been reading here and there on internet).
We came across people like you before,they spent more time slagging people off than doing some training,but after a while they normally stop barking.
This would be the last reply I post on this subject, because as I said, there are too many "know-all" people around and you have proven to be just one more that hide himself behind post names...

To Tee sok, I'm italian myself and I know where you coming from....Having said that, I believe that you have never been to a Valerio's seminar otherwise you would not state something like that.
My best regard to you all, if you want to see something different www.krabikrabong.it
HuaNaiPran Max Panizzo --Ikka instructor for UK

[Ikka]

reply to George stando

Because you were that one that knows everything(I received your rude e-mail), I shall point out something now.
Vincent Giordano has studied under Ajarn Messamai Messomonta(I hope the name is spell correctly) like Tony Moore (whom is a very nice person) NOT under Ajarn Thonglor.
So you are proving that the "knowledge" that you have(and so kindly share with us) on this subject is almost none at all(probably you've been reading here and there on internet).
We came across people like you before,they spent more time slagging people off than doing some training,but after a while they normally stop barking.
This would be the last reply I post on this subject, because as I said, there are too many "know-all" people around and you have proven to be just one more that hide himself behind post names...

To Tee sok, I'm italian myself and I know where you coming from....Having said that, I believe that you have never been to a Valerio's seminar otherwise you would not state something like that.
My best regard to you all, if you want to see something different www.krabikrabong.it
HuaNaiPran Max Panizzo --Ikka instructor for UK

[Tee Sok]

Max Panizzo:

yes I am Italian and yes I was lucky to never having attended a Zadra seminar, because I am sure I would have been misguided.
Having been many times in Thailand and having trained there I can see the HUGE difference between the way Zadra proposes his material and the way it works there. I am not claiming anything here, I am a student of Thai and other MA and I will always be, and that's what I want to be. If I will teach one day, it will be with respect of the traditions and common sense. Not to sell and to show off.
I won't certainly build ridiculous websites and make video clips that have parts of Ong Bak just to sell more.

[Tee Sok]

sorry for the edit !

[george stando]

Max:
Thanks for your replies and I can honestly say that since I am always interested in others replies. The work in question will be out next year and the training sessions were witnessed by me in ajarn thonglors yard along with others. It was also videotaped and the interview is all there on tape. I never stated anything beyond that and merely asked questions since you RUDELY entered this forum. I do not speak for vincent nor anyone else. you were RUDELY giving out informercials for your teacher and website....When you come into a forum like this, try to be a positive source not a negative one......You still havent contributed anything positive beyond tooting your own horn. Its best left to your website which speaks volumes for you guys....So you are not going to get any respect anytime soon unless you earn it by posting things that are not political and self serving.

I do not speak for Vinicent or anyone else but myself. If you have soemthing to say to him directly email him. if you are going to attack him, insult him especially in light of you not knowing him or his work, you are attacking probably the most neutral and positive source of promotion for your teacher ajarn thonglor there is(and THUS YOU). Vincents second book is on the all sword methods throughout thailand, burma, cambodia,laos. He walked every part of thailand in search everything that remains in that realm. His early sword training has greatly expanded since he was living in thailand for several years on and off greatly beyond his early training with samai. Everybody wants to be the only one...the greatest student of....the this and the that...but in truth you want to be an example of that in action and deeds not an empty headed vessel.

We agreed that ajarn thonglor is a great master and a link to the distant past and thats whats most important here. He should be honored and respected. The thread has veered away from tis orginal intent into a polictical discussion.

This thread is kali vs krabi krabong...Got something to add to that folks or take this elsewhere like i said before.

George

[Crafty Dog]

Woof All:

I find myself on this forum again because someone bumped a thread about our Kali Tudo on the MMA sub-forum and so I surfed through the FMA forum while here and found this thread.

Since I last participated in this thread, we have continued with our blending of Kali and Krabi Krabong. Although the inititials "KKK" have an honorable connotation in Filipino history, in American history the meaning is odious, so I have named our blend of the two "Los Triques" (the three "que's (pronounded as in Spanish/ The 3 Ks", get it?). To get a taste of what it looks like, there is a promo clip on our website at www.dogbrothers.com showing a bit of our "Los Triques" DVD and we are currently working on "Dos Triques" which is our Kali-KK blend for two sticks.

Blending the two is very interesting. The , , , internal logic of movement of each seems distinct in some important ways. FMA trained people often feel KK movement to be "wrong" but the internal logic of what they have learned already, but IMHO those who persist and find how to blend the two are richly rewarded.

In DBMA we use the basic linear 9 counts of KK to get people used hitting hard in combination combined with highly aggressive forward pressive, and blocking such attacks. This is one of the very first things we teach. Not only does it tend to produce people to be reckoned with in very short order, but it also lays the foundation for what we call "Bilateralism" by virtue of the training requiring continuous stepping through whether going forward or backwards.

This also lays the foundation for the coordination required to fight out of what we call an "off-lead" i.e. the foot other than the weapon hand forward e.g. weapon in right hand, left foot forward.

This can feel particularly weird and "wrong" to many FMA people, but when understood this position has a lot of merit IMHO.

The Adventure continues,
Crafty Dog

[Black Grass]

Woof All:
...
This also lays the foundation for the coordination required to fight out of what we call an "off-lead" i.e. the foot other than the weapon hand forward e.g. weapon in right hand, left foot forward.

This can feel particularly weird and "wrong" to many FMA people, but when understood this position has a lot of merit IMHO.
....

In Ilustrisimo this is a fairly common position. When learning Cuatro Cantos, Kali(s) Ilustrisimo's main drill, one of the first counters you learn moves you into this position. Using the tatlong bao (three coconut) foot work you position yourself with your weapon in the rear hand at a 45 degree angle to your opponent. Also there are benefits of having your weapon in the rear hand especially against a strong frontal charging attack. However, this position is not as common as it is in Krabi Krabong.

Vince
Kali Ilustrisimo USA
Bakbakan International

[Tee Sok]

Crafty Dog and Black Grass:

interesting posts, thanks.

I also like KK for its forward/backward foot work, it gives you great
stability when attacking and defending and you hardly find yourself
off guard when moving; it is also very direct.

I don't know much about FMA so it's interesting to have a glimpse on
different methods.