Shivworks

[Sun_Helmet]

In the heat of an altercation or assault where fear and adrenalin can overwhelm an individual, do you think s/he can make the distinction in targeting? I tend to think that survival instincts takeover and quite often a victim ends up doing whatever it takes to survive.

That's when training kicks in. The key to your statement is OVERWHELM. That means PANIC has set in. Panic is usually the response of the untrained individual. It is separate from an heightened andrenal state of stress.

I firmly believe that the individual with the knife MUST be able to make a distinction. Their life depends on it. Otherwise, why the need to train the knife if they are just blindly stabbing at areas without knowing why they are doing so. It can not only dictate whether they knowingly are stabbing or slashing at areas with a possibility lethal consequences or they are trying to do something else entirely.

I know for a fact that with proper training that individuals will respond with accuracy and not panic. Panic can cause someone who is not trained in knowing the correct target areas to also look like a complete psychopath in the eyes of the law. They stab twenty times because they do not know WHY they are doing it. They have no concept of vital template training. In an adrenalized state they can still respond in a heightened physical state but maintain awareness.

"Whatever it takes to survive" is great but one should know what the "Whatever" part is. If they know what certain targets will induce they can make a better assessment of what it is they are trying to accomplish.

Again, a civilian may not even be mentally prepared let alone employ the “physical option of 'military style' knife tactics” you are referring to.

It depends what you think I am refering to.
If a civilian will do "Whatever it takes to survive" there's also numerous scenarios where they have some time to think of a plan of escape- that may include stealth, evasion, subterfuge, or a quick kill.
Certain scenarios may dictate that "whatever it takes to survive" requires they 'surprise' the bad guy 'military' style.

You brought up a good point, “a half beat to react”. Just curious, in a robbery situation where the gunman is already trigger happy due to the anxiety of getting caught, do you believe there is less effort in drawing & opening your knife then him stepping back and pulling the trigger?

Well, the scenario you initially described was the good guy BEHIND the bad guy, because he is "cupping" the mouth movie style. That alters the scenario a bit because now you have limited the scenario to a face to face, no weapons of opportunity scenario. You no longer possess the "half beat" I described. You have described at least a two count scenario.

However, if we return to the initial scenario, with the quick kills we teach - as the knife enters first, the gun man is on the way to unconsciousness faster than a rear naked choke. Why? Because the physical dynamics of proper quick kills work off the same principles but with greater efficacy.

Another point is that you are "drawing & opening a knife". That means the mindset is not on subterfuge but a dynamic engagement. Another crucial point is that your scenario is a robbery... which may not necessitate any physical engagement at all.

They are simply my reasoning logical or not to the differences in our approach to teaching that hopefully will benefit the readers.

As mine as well.

Any way, regardless of our differences, it’s always good exchanging with you as I do respect the knowledge your have researched.

Thanks.
--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

[Garland]

...wow.
I'm very flattered and thankful that both Guro Rafael Kayanan and Guro John Jacobo would take such interest in my post. Thank you.
Seriously, thank you both for your time. I have nothing but the greatest respect for both of you.

[johnj]

Just because some do not choose to teach military methods to civilians does NOT mean SOME methods won't work just well in civilian scenarios, even with legal/moral issues in mind. There's just too many variables for an absolute.

Agreed but I am NOT doubting military methods. Mind you, I am merely speaking of techniques (only) being taught. Although I believe the strategy can be simplified for the layman.

The key to your statement is OVERWHELM. That means PANIC has set in. Panic is usually the response of the untrained individual. It is separate from an heightened andrenal state of stress.

Overwhelm does not necessarily relate to panic which btw...can occur to ANYONE even the most trained individuals.

It depends what you think I am refering to.
If a civilian will do "Whatever it takes to survive" there's also numerous scenarios where they have some time to think of a plan of escape- that may include stealth, evasion, subterfuge, or a quick kill.
Certain scenarios may dictate that "whatever it takes to survive" requires they 'surprise' the bad guy 'military' style.

I concur, the type of scenario will dictate the assessment that leads to plan of action.

Another crucial point is that your scenario is a robbery... which may not necessitate any physical engagement at all.

True. In many instances, compliance is the key. I may have taken your statement (below) to heart

it is very difficult to do a face to face takeout (although we have done it to well seasoned firearms guys

Final thought..."Well seasoned firearm" enthusiasts or does this include Military and LEO personnel where retention is priority?

Yours in the Arts,

John J

https://www.swacom.com

[johnj]

...wow.
I'm very flattered and thankful that both Guro Rafael Kayanan and Guro John Jacobo would take such interest in my post. Thank you.
Seriously, thank you both for your time. I have nothing but the greatest respect for both of you.

Hi Garland,

Rafael and I have history in exchanging dialogue. I enjoy the discussions, his input and even those deemed as debates. Glad you were not taken back from the slight deviation of your post.

Regards,

John G. Jacobo

https://www.swacom.com

[Sun_Helmet]

Agreed but I am NOT doubting military methods. Mind you, I am merely speaking of techniques (only) being taught. Although I believe the strategy can be simplified for the layman.

Well I agree with that.. anyone teaching techniques only is missing the rest of the picture.

Overwhelm does not necessarily relate to panic which btw...can occur to ANYONE even the most trained individuals.

I may have a completely different definition for "overwhelm" especially in the initial context of your statement John. From the way you described it, (from the Sayoc perspective) - the person is no longer using his training, but sounds like they are just stabbing at anything without rhyme or reason. If they have any knowledge of vital template targeting and muscle memory installation (or whatever other systems might call it - if they train it)- they should still resort to what they are used to doing. Otherwise, it sounds like the person is in complete panic mode AND staying that way. I don't define that as " most trained individuals".

For example, do you picture yourself completely reacting totally outside the realm of your training if you are placed in a somewhat familiar andrenalin induced state? Or do you picture yourself at least reacting in gross muscle memory responses from your training?

What may also be confusing you from my statement is that you MIGHT have a totally different idea of what Vital Template training entails. We're not teaching students to pluck arteries out of the air with a blade. It isn't that delicate or extremely intricate. It's just knowing that if you stab at the bone, you're going to have to stab again and again unless you train:

1. Not to stab there
2. Or unless you're VERY very strong that you can break through anyone's bone, from ANY position.
3. Knowing how to access the vitals even if you do hit bone without losing complete control of your wits. This is due to the fact that bone can be a guide to funnel your attack, not a true obstacle. Like feeling your way about the body so that you know what's going on.
4. To 'Aim Small'... which is the closest training analogy to what Vital Template training is all about.

Final thought..."Well seasoned firearm" enthusiasts or does this include Military and LEO personnel where retention is priority?

I would put well seasoned firearm enthusiasts under the category of the average Sayoc student.

I meant some of the very BEST of the best... LEO/Military - bar none.
Many are now active Sayoc Kali students.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

[Sun_Helmet]

...wow.
I'm very flattered and thankful that both Guro Rafael Kayanan and Guro John Jacobo would take such interest in my post. Thank you.
Seriously, thank you both for your time. I have nothing but the greatest respect for both of you.

Thanks Garland.
I also have respect for anyone out there doing their best to promote the FMA and spread positive info about training like John is doing.

--Rafael--

[johnj]

For example, do you picture yourself completely reacting totally outside the realm of your training if you are placed in a somewhat familiar andrenalin induced state? Or do you picture yourself at least reacting in gross muscle memory responses from your training?

As much as possible, I can confidently rely on my skill set. However, it is the state of mind (and scenario) at time of engagement that will dictate the outcome. And unless YOU have been faced with a life threatening adrenalin induced state all OUR talk is theory until proven. Thank goodness most of us have not faced or do not face it on a daily basis like our LEO & Military personnel.

What may also be confusing you from my statement is that you MIGHT have a totally different idea of what Vital Template training entails. We're not teaching students to pluck arteries out of the air with a blade. It isn't that delicate or extremely intricate. It's just knowing that if you stab at the bone, you're going to have to stab again and again unless you train:

Now that is funny Rafael! "Pluck arteries"...hehe! The day you guys can do that, I will drop everything

Yes, I am familiar enough with some of the Sayoc training methodologies including the templates.

I would put well seasoned firearm enthusiasts under the category of the average Sayoc student. I meant some of the very BEST of the best... LEO/Military - bar none. Many are now active Sayoc Kali students.

Indeed a BOLD and impressive CLAIM. However, I won't even comment as the whole tone of your statement is so unneccessary.

John J

https://www.swacom.com

[danjuandesiga]

damn good thread guys!

geez guys... (wheeeew!)
Both you guys'(John and Rafael) fingers sure got alot of typing exercise in for this discussion.
I enjoyed reading both your posts as I find it inspiring enough to look forward to some FUN TRAINING later on this evening in my class.
Thanks for the posts guys. You rock!

Daniel Arola
Fayetteville, NC

[Sun_Helmet]

Indeed a BOLD and impressive CLAIM. However, I won't even comment as the whole tone of your statement is so unneccessary.
John J

A 'comment without a comment'...heh.

Note that I stated 'SOME of the BEST' and not 'ALL of the BEST'.

IE:
"I've trained with many experts over my 24 years as a Navy SEAL and the information I've found to be the most efficient and well-rounded is the Sayoc Kali knife fighting techniques. You will acquire an exceptional proficiency with a knife beyond anything you thought possible."

Michael Jaco
ORIGINATOR / HEAD INSTRUCTOR for the Navy SEALs Combat Fighting Course

------

"Sayoc Kali is phenomenal!
Edge Weapons just scratch the surface of the techniques, teaching methodology and combat mindset of the Sayoc group. If you are looking for teachers who seriously research and address all areas of personal combat for the modern warrior; you owe it to yourself to seek out these gentlemen."

Mike Mello

20 plus year police officer. International military and law enforcement trainer for HECKLER & KOCH and Armor Holdings Inc.

And unless YOU have been faced with a life threatening adrenalin induced state all OUR talk is theory until proven.

Sayoc is not a theory driven system.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

[Sun_Helmet]

I enjoyed reading both your posts as I find it inspiring enough to look forward to some FUN TRAINING later on this evening in my class.
Thanks for the posts guys. You rock!

Daniel Arola
Fayetteville, NC

Thanks Daniel.
I will let the guys know when we're around your area again.
We were just down there training folks at Fort Bragg.
Quite a great bunch!

Looking forward to meeting you.

--Rafael--

[danjuandesiga]

count me in!

Thanks Daniel.
I will let the guys know when we're around your area again.
We were just down there training folks at Fort Bragg.
Quite a great bunch!

Looking forward to meeting you.

--Rafael--

I so look forward to the oppurtunity.
I truly admire the hell out of Sayoc Kali's training style from what I've gotten to see so far. I can't wait!

Daniel Arola

[johnj]

This is all written TEXT (tone?) so that would basically be an incorrect projection on your part at the least, and a coy attempt at a value judgement at the most.
Which is it?

*
I would not say incorrect because even TEXT can convey a tone i.e. sarcasm, anger, excitement etc. It seems you missed a certain tone in some of my dialogue or should I say text? I just find all the boasting, name throwing and endorsements a bit worn out. I credit the Sayoc organization for the outstanding contributions to the FMA and more, but isn't it a bit played. Is that any clearer for you?
*

They are NOT theory driven people to say the least.
To imply otherwise is a great disservice to the work and dedication they have given to the country.

*
Please DO NOT try to distort my point. You know very well what I meant about theory vs. actual experience and it refers to you, me and every Tom, Dick & Harry NOT the LEO/Military personnel who deal with REAL issues everyday and MUST perform.
*

Again, Sayoc is not a theory driven system nor am I.

*
I never said Sayoc was theory driven. Also, why not*speak for yourself and NOT the Sayoc Organization.*Unless of course, every single one of you have successfully applied everything you've said in "REAL" life threatening experiences.
*

I'm finished with this topic as I can see it going into a spiral and have no means of allowing it. It has been tried before and failed.

John J

[Sun_Helmet]

Overwhelmed?

*
I would not say incorrect because even TEXT can convey a tone i.e. sarcasm, anger, excitement etc. It seems you missed a certain tone in some of my dialogue or should I say text? I just find all the boasting, name throwing and endorsements a bit worn out. I credit the Sayoc organization for the outstanding contributions to the FMA and more, but isn't it a bit played. Is that any clearer for you?

Sure - "Yours in Arts" means something totally different to everyone....VERY CLEAR...heh.

It's very clear indeed, because I wouldn't see anything wrong if you linked to YOUR site or posted tournaments announcements concerning YOUR system or placed details about YOUR training in every post...oh wait... you do. The more the better, and I'm certainly contributing to the dialogue. I would certainly SUPPORT you and YOUR system(s), especially when it relates to the topics at hand.

You asked a simple question and I answered it from the SAYOC pov.
I thought editing my post by just leaving the endorsements from REAL LEOs/SEALs would speak better than going round and round with your 'dismissive' tone.

If that grates you in some way, then I'd say you'd have to check into that yourself. Not everyone here knows what I'm talking about concerning Sayoc Kali (this is not a PM between us) and every post can be someone's FIRST.
Just check out Garland and Daniel's posts- they certainly got something else from it.

Please DO NOT try to distort my point. You know very well what I meant about theory vs. actual experience and it refers to you, me and every Tom, Dick & Harry NOT the LEO/Military personnel who deal with REAL issues everyday and MUST perform.

Your points tend to go round and round John.
You ask about whether the methods can be applied by military/leos and when I cite actual sources you DISMISS it as an endorsement (see above)...

The truth is that MANY of our Sayoc students ARE LEO and Military... many of our full instructors are/were...as well. The father of Tuhon Sayoc RETIRED as an LEO... so that's OUR base.
Those endorsements by SEALs/LEO ARE from Sayoc Kali practitioners... not just people we met once at a seminar.

Therefore, if the methods (the way WE teach it) translates the proper responses that allowed them to make it work in the real world to others, then it is NOT theory driven.

Now you ask Sayoc specific questions and when I answer them specifically you do not like the answer. The teaching methods work if the person trains them... that's a simple FACT.

I never said Sayoc was theory driven. Also, why not*speak for yourself and NOT the Sayoc Organization.*Unless of course, every single one of you have successfully applied everything you've said in "REAL" life threatening experiences.

Well certainly you are not going to convince me that your method of interacting is something I need to emulate.
Nor the way I have to represent Sayoc Kali.

There's a simple lesson we tend to teach to ALL our Sayoc students.
The WHOLE is greater than the ONE.
And the ONE represents the WHOLE system.

UNITY and the sense of FAMILY is VERY strong under the Sayoc organization.
We teach group dynamics and how every instructor is supported by the other.
Each one watches the other as if they were part of a larger family.
Filipino history has shown us that to be 'DIVIDED' is to be conquered.

We do not ask anything from our students that we have not experienced ourselves.
When I speak about Sayoc, I also speak about how it relates to ME.
However on a public forum, I AM representing the system.
So do ALL Sayoc students/instructors.

I am not theory driven - and I've had to use Sayoc methods to overcome 'adrenalin' type scenarios that were life and death. They worked.
Is that CLEAR enough for you or are you going to fixate that I mentioned 'Sayoc' again?

You mention BAKBAKAN, FAIRBAIRN and whatever system you want all the time - as much as you want... I see NOTHING wrong with that.
Otherwise, I'd be practicing a DOUBLE STANDARD.

Btw, I also mentioned that OTHER systems may also do what we do - even if I do not know they do.

I'm finished with this topic as I can see it going into a spiral and have no means of allowing it. It has been tried before and failed.

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212324&highlight=sayoc+drills

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
A FEEDER based system

[johnj]

It's very clear indeed, because I wouldn't see anything wrong if you linked to YOUR site or posted tournaments announcements concerning YOUR system or placed details about YOUR training in every post...oh wait... you do. The more the better, and I'm certainly contributing to the dialogue. I would certainly SUPPORT you and YOUR system(s), especially when it relates to the topics at hand.

A bit different from your example BUT I will accept that. After all, I am a contemporary among the big wigs of FMA and have always said that. Although I do not dwell on any one style or organization to boost me. I rely on doing the best I can for the benefits of the students and the preservation of the FMA in general. And as a hobby only, I would do it for free BUT my wife would not like that.

Your points tend to go round and round John.
You ask about whether the methods can be applied by military/leos and when I cite actual sources it starts to irritate you (see above)...

Ah yes YOUR input was the only logic. And NO...you cannot irritate me, laugh maybe.

Here's an interesting link:

Thanks for posting the link. It will only support what I am saying. But just remember who was on the other side of the firing line. I did not attempt to turn it into a feud between 2 organizations/styles, I did not become irate let alone angry, I did not make subtle challenges, I did not look to confront anyone.

BTW...it was also brought to my attention by people IN your organization that I was somewhat chastised because I publicly criticized training methods that were brought into my topic of discussion. Is that a valid reason? I think not.

John J

[Garland]

Guro Rafael...this may be a bit off topic, but what is the Sayoc Kanayan 10 count? (I'm assuming it's your creation)
What are the angles and footwork...if you feel comfortable telling me...if not, it's cool, I understand.